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А вот и 13-й том! (Прочитано 17058 раз)
Ответ #30 - 09/18/21 :: 8:29pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Эхм, я правильно понимаю, что это всё до того, как они встретились с Ороме?
 

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Ответ #31 - 09/18/21 :: 10:54pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Цитата:
Эхм, я правильно понимаю, что это всё до того, как они встретились с Ороме?

Да, и по этой версии квенди до встречи с Оромэ успели встретиться с кем-то из  духов (?) или были проинструктированы Самим:

Цитата:
«Of special note in this text is the introduction, or at least suggestion, of events and motives not previously found elsewhere, including: the sending of Melian and (at least three of) the later Istari to Cuiviénen for a time as guardians of the Elves; the doubt of the younger Elves at Cuiviénen as to the existence of the Valar, and the prideful sense among these Elves of a “mission” to themselves defeat Melkor and possess Arda; and of the refusal of the 144 First Elves, “the Seniors”, to depart on the Great March.»


Цитата:
«First löa of VY 850First Age 1. Quendi awake in the Spring (144 in number). Melian warned in a dream leaves Valinor and goes to Endor.
VY 854576.[1] About the time the 12th generation of Quendi first appeared, Melkor (or his agents) first get wind of the Quendi.[2] Quendi originally warned by Eru or emissaries, and forbidden (or advised?) not yet to stray far. Adventurous Elves did so, nonetheless, and some were caught?»


Дальше процитированный постом выше абзац. Потом вот так:

Цитата:
«end of VY 864 2016. Oromë finds the Quendi. He dwells with them for 48 years (to 2064).
VY 865/2 2018. Tidings reach Valinor.
VY 865/44 2060. Melkor seeks to attack Oromë. Oromë informs Manwë. Tulkas is sent.
VY 865/48 2064. Leaving guards, Oromë returns to Valinor.
D[ays of] B[liss]  VY 865/50 2066. Oromë reports. Council of the Valar. They resolve on behalf of the Quendi to make War on Melkor, and begin to prepare for the great struggle. They debate what is to be done with the Quendi, since they fear Endor will suffer great damage. Most of the Valar think they should remove the Quendi to safety, at least temporarily. Ulmo in chief (also Yavanna?) is against this: It is not Eru’s intention that they should reside in such a place; and could not or would not be temporary. He prophesies that once brought thither the Quendi would either have to be sent back to their proper homes against their will; or would rebel and do so against the will of the Valar.
DB 865/56 2072. Birth of Ingwë of the House of Imin.[4]
DB 865/104 2120. Birth of Finwë.
DB 865/110 2126. Birth of Elwë.
VY 866/1 2163.[5] Oromë returns to Cuiviénen, with more mayar. (Melkor becomes suspicious, and guesses war is purposed against him, because of the Quendi. During Oromë’s absence his emissaries were busy, and many lies circulate. The “heresy” awakes in new form: the Valar clearly do exist; but they have abandoned Endor: rightly as the appointed realm of the Quendi. Now they are becoming jealous, and wish to control the Quendi as vassals, and so re-possess themselves of Endor. Finwë, a gallant and adventurous young quende, direct descendant of Tata (therefore 25th gen.), is much taken by these ideas; less so his friend Elwë, descendant of Enel.)

DB 866/13 2175. Oromë remains for 12 years, and then is summoned to return for the councils and war-preparations. Manwë has decided that the Quendi should come to Valinor, but on urgent advice of Varda, they are only to be invited, and are to be given free choice.[6] The Valar send five Guardians (great spirits of the Maiar) – with Melian (the only woman, but the chief) these make six. The others were Tarindor (later Saruman), Olórin (Gandalf), Hrávandil (Radagast), Palacendo, and Haimenar.[7] Tulkas goes back. Oromë remains in Cuiviénen for 3 more years: VY 866/13–16, FA 2175–8.
DB 866/14–24 2176–86. The Valar continue their war-preparation. (Melkor also. Angband is strengthened and Sauron put in command.)
DB 866/49 2211. The preparations and plans are now nearly complete. The Valar decide that the Quendi should now be “invited”. But Manwë decrees that first the Quendi should send representatives as ambassadors to Valinor (Ulmo insists this is perilously near to overaweing their free will.) Oromë is sent back to Cuiviénen.
DB 866/50 2212. Oromë sets out from Cuiviénen with the Three Ambassadors. These were elected by the Quendi, one from each of their kindreds. Only the youngest Elves are willing. Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë are chosen. (Ingwë belonged to the 24th gen., and was then 140 years old; Finwë was of the 25th gen. and 92, Elwë of same and 86.)[8]
DB 866/51 2213. Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë arrive in Valinor. They are indeed dazzled and overawed. Finwë (with “heretical” leanings) is most converted, and ardent for acceptance. (He has a lover, Míriel, who is devoted to crafts, and he longs for her to have the marvellous chance of learning new skills. Ingwë is already married, and more cool, but desires to dwell in the presence of Varda. Elwë would prefer the “lesser light, and shadows” of Endor, but will follow Finwë his friend.)
DB 866/60 2222. They remain 9 years, for Ingwë and Finwë are reluctant to hurry away.
DB 866/61 2223. The “Ambassadors” return. Great Debate of the Quendi. A few refuse even to attend. Imin, Tata, and Enel are ill-pleased, and regard the affair as a revolt on the part of the youngest Quendi, to escape their authority. None of the First Elves (144) accept the invitation. Hence the Avari called and still call themselves “the Seniors”.»


В «новых» текстах появляются, кстати, эльфийские «деды» - Имин, Тата и Энэл, которые по одной версии против переселения в Валинор и в целом недовольны потерей единства среди народа. А Ингвэ, Финвэ и Элвэ - молодые пассионарные эльфы -  наоборот агитируют за. И ниже сразу альтернативная версия: на экскурсию съездили все шестеро, после чего Имин и Тата высказываются за переселение, Энэл сомневается, квенди устраивают голосование, по итогам которого 3/4 решают отправиться в Аман.

UPD: и к тексту есть примечание:
Цитата:
« Of special note in this text is the introduction, or at least suggestion, of events and motives not previously found elsewhere, including: the sending of Melian and (at least three of) the later Istari to Cuiviénen for a time as guardians of the Elves; the doubt of the younger Elves at Cuiviénen as to the existence of the Valar, and the prideful sense among these Elves of a “mission” to themselves defeat Melkor and possess Arda; and of the refusal of the 144 First Elves, “the Seniors”, to depart on the Great March.»
 
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Ответ #32 - 09/18/21 :: 11:19pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Не по теме, про географию. Расположение Ангбанда:

Цитата:
« A fort far West and not far from the Sea would be a natural strategic device by Melkor for preventing the Valar coming in force against him, or for delaying their advance if they tried to assail him.
This is the probable story ☞. As soon as he discovered the Quendi (if not indeed far sooner, and well before the time of their awaking, which Melkor guessed more shrewdly than the Valar) Melkor constructed Angband. One of its chief functions was not only to defend the Western Shores, but to shroud them.»


Возможно, я немного туплю, но я всю дорогу считала, что крепость расположена внутри континента. Там разве был выход к морю, да ещё относительно близкий?
 
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Ответ #33 - 09/19/21 :: 2:41am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Эхм, выхода к морю там не было 146%, ни на каких профессорских картах (которые в набросках). И вообще непонятно, как это согласуется с утверждёнными картами Белерианда (которые есть как утверждённые). То есть, может, расположение Ангбанда на западном побережье и логично, но увы, его там нет и не было никогда.

Я понимаю эльфов, которые решили, что "Валар есть, но они нас бросили". Учитывая временные промежутки...
Цитата:
end of VY 864 2016. Oromë finds the Quendi. He dwells with them for 48 years (to 2064).
VY 865/2 2018. Tidings reach Valinor.
VY 865/44 2060. Melkor seeks to attack Oromë. Oromë informs Manwë. Tulkas is sent.
VY 865/48 2064. Leaving guards, Oromë returns to Valinor.
D[ays of] B[liss]  VY 865/50 2066. Oromë reports. Council of the Valar.

Такое ощущение, что это не Стихии и Силы, а максимум местные правители. Которым нужно два года, чтобы гонец добрался, условно говоря, из колоний до метрополии. Либо это как у Желязны, кажется — "великие неторопливые короли". Вообще, такая хронология достойна Lost Tales.
(читает дальше)
Цитата:
Finwë, a gallant and adventurous young quende, direct descendant of Tata (therefore 25th gen.)

Чего?.. 25 поколение, я правильно поняла? Ой да и офигеть теперь, чума какая. То есть, я прошу прощения, какое-то это опять "человеческое, слишком человеческое". Со старейшими эльфами, которые в итоге авари, очень занятно... но 25 поколений...
 

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Ответ #34 - 09/19/21 :: 10:58pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Там несколько вариантов, в том числе с меньшим поколенческим отстоянием:

Цитата:
« Let Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë all be young 6th gen. Elves, but each a direct descendant (by eldest son) of Imin, Tata, and Enel [respectively]. (Divergence in dates of birth is due to intrusion of earlier-born daughters.)
Ingwë was in the first births of the 6th gen. The earliest births of this generation were in FA 536. Let Ingwë be born in 536: 328 [sun-years old] at the Finding in FA 864, 534 at the March in FA 1070. The 6th gen. married at [sun-year age] 312. Therefore Ingwë married in FA 848 (just before the Finding). At the March he had three children, born in FA 849, 934, and 1031. The youngest was 39 at the March.
Finwë must have been a later 6th-generation birth. Let Finwë be born in FA 772: 92 at the Finding, 298 at the March. He would have married about FA 1084. He already loved Míriel and postponed marriage till the end of the March.
Elwë was born in FA 792: 72 at the Finding, 278 at the March. He would have been married about FA 1108, but had not yet set his heart on any spouse.
When Oromë asked for Ambassadors, Imin, Tata, and Enel were against the whole business, and refused to go. Ingwë was the eldest son of Ilion, who was in a direct line from Iminyë in the 4th generation (all having been first children and sons); sc. great-great grandson: he was tall, beautiful, beloved by the Imillië, more given to thought than the arts. His spouse was Ilwen (born FA 539). His first child was a son, Ingwil, his second a daughter Indis (born FA 934).[15]»


И здесь Индис - дочка Ингвэ, а не сестра.

Если честно, я в какой-то момент напрочь запуталась в демографических расчетах.

Ещё есть странный текст про эльфийские жизненные циклы и интересный про эльфийскую экономику. Нести сюда?
 
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Ответ #35 - 09/20/21 :: 1:45am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Нести. Всегда было интересно, что за циклы такие, нигде не было. И почему у Махтана борода растёт, а у Финве нет.
 

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Ответ #36 - 09/20/21 :: 1:58am

Allor   Вне Форума
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Бррр, что-то оно какое-то... громоздкое. Оставьте мне мой незатейливый эпос, э?)))))
 

Разница между мной и сумасшедшим в том, что я - не сумасшедший (с) С.Дали
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Ответ #37 - 09/20/21 :: 2:12am

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Жизненные циклы (1969-1970 гг.):

Цитата:
« The Elvish lives should go in cycles. They achieved longevity by a series of renewals. After birth and coming to maturity and beginning to show age, they began a period of quiet in which when possible they “retired” for a while, and issued from it renewed again in physical health to approximately the vigour of early maturity. (Their knowledge and wisdom were however progressively cumulative.)
This had not appeared in the periods dealt with (or had only begun towards the end of the Third Age).
The “Fading” was apparent in this way:

1)      The periods of activity and full vigour became progressively shorter, and
2) The renewal was not so complete: they were a little older at each renewal than at the previous renewal.

TEXT 2

Elves lived in life-cycles? sc. birth, childhood to bodily and mental maturity (as swift as that of Men) and then a period of parenthood (marriage, etc.) which could be delayed for a long time after maturity.[1] This “cycle” proceeded until all children of the “first period of parenthood” were grown up. Then there was a youth-renewing.
Elves married in perpetuity and as long as a first mate was alive and incarnate they had no thought of other marriage. In Aman the only case of a breach was Míriel/Finwë. In Middle-earth, especially in the Elder Days, violent death was frequent; but the slain ([?etc.]) could by the Valar be restored to life.[fn1][2] At their own choice. The Valar became more [?gentle] in this matter – and the griefs of the Eldar were often so great before death that being unwilling to return was held pardonable – especially to those having no wife or ungrown children. (Only in one known case, Beren, did the Valar – by special permission of Eru – restore a human body to life and suffer its fëa to return.) If a wife was left widowed (or vice versa) forever remarriage was permissible, but seldom occurred.
In lives not marred by death or who enter [it] the “youth-renewing” left the pair young and vigorous, but for awhile though they dwelt together they went about their own businesses and [?recovered] in [?] before a second period of parenthood arose. (Some never entered such a new period.) But, though it was long before it was noticed, at each new “cycle” their vigour of the Eldar waned a little. Before the end of the Second Age youth-renewals and the re-Generation of children were becoming rare.[fn2] The Eldar were “fading”: whether this was by the original design of Eru, or a “punishment” for the sins of the Eldar, is not certain. But their “immortality” within the Life of the World was guaranteed, and they could depart to the Blessed Realm if they willed.»

Про бороды, кстати, есть в совсем позднем отрывке (1972 год) - там указано, что у эльфов бород не было. Без каких-либо привязок к возрасту.

Экономика (1968 год):
Цитата:
« Note on Elvish Economy

Arable. The Sindar did not practice agriculture until long after the departure of the other Eldar.[1] Of the “economics” of Valinor we know nothing except that [?initially] food was provided for the Eldar – not without all labour, in which they delighted and made it the occasion of song and festivals.[2] But the grain (of some kind not native to Middle-earth)[fn1] was self-sown and only needed gathering and the scattering of 1/10 (the tithe of Yavanna) of the seed on the field.
The Dwarves had an agriculture – which in early times they practiced when isolated and unable to buy grain etc. by barter. They had invented a “plough” of some sort – which they dragged as well as steered themselves: they were tough and strong – but they did not delight in such labour of necessity.[3]
The Kingdom of Doriath was a woodland realm, and had only a little open ground, except on its east borders where they kept some small kine and sheep. Beyond the Girdle of Melian (eastward) there was much open land (prairie) of wide extent. The Sindar (E. Sindar) not under the rule of Thingol dwelt and practiced not only cattle-rearing and sheep-farming, but also grain-growing and other food crops; on which they prospered because both Doriath west and the Dwarves east were ready to buy what they could. Flax was grown in Doriath; and the Sindar there were adepts in spinning and weaving it. They knew some metallurgy and had good weapons on the Great Journey owing to the teaching of Oromë. For long on the Great Journey they had depended on the arms and swords, spears, bows, etc. made in their first home; or during their sojourns – if they could then find metals. In Beleriand they were eventually aided by the Dwarves, who assisted (very willingly!) in search for metals. Iron was found in the Gorgoroth![4] And later also in western parts of Ered Wethrin. There was silver there also. But of gold they had very little, except what was washed out by Sirion near Doriath’s borders or at its Delta. But the Exiles were heavily ornamented with gold, of which the total that they brought must have amounted to a great weight. Before his death Fëanor had explored (as much as possible) the ground looking for metals. It was the discovery of silver, copper, and tin about Mithrim that contributed greatly to his rashness in trying too soon to conquer and own, entirely, this North region. But it was known that the best and most abundant iron ore was in Thangorodrim.
The Eldar were not in the Common Eldarin period ignorant of either horticulture or agriculture. These things they had begun to develop by their own skill and inventiveness at a date long before the Great Journey; but by the teaching of Oromë their practice was greatly improved. The Eldar hoarded a great deal of food before they set out; but they took with them not only weapons (hunting and defense) but light cultural tools.[5] Their sojourns during this age-long journey were often prolonged – so prolonged that at each stage some remained content and stayed behind.»

 
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Ответ #38 - 09/20/21 :: 2:13am

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Цитата:
Бррр, что-то оно какое-то... громоздкое. Оставьте мне мой незатейливый эпос, э?)))))

Аллор, нам теперь с этим жить.)))
 
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Ответ #39 - 09/20/21 :: 10:22am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Цитата:
Оставьте мне мой незатейливый эпос, э?)))))

Я бы вот тоже предпочла, чтобы мне не выдавали опять концепцию Валар из LT, я слишком как-то привыкла к тому, что это не "такие люди".

(вдумчиво читает) Ага. То есть, эльфы — это такие змеи. В конце цикла они тускнеют и становятся заторможенными, а потом перелинивают и снова превращаются в активных и ярких, но чуть-чуть побольше.
А насчёт того, что с сельским хозяйством у Старших Детей всё идёт по принципу "сунул в землю ветку — выросло [плодовое] дерево", я как бы догадывалась. Труд по необходимости им не нравился, глядь, кто б удивлялся, а я не буду.
Но нолдор-изгнанники все в золоте повеселили, конечно, да.
 

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Ответ #40 - 09/20/21 :: 7:41pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Я злая, поэтому буду говорить всякие гадости.

Цитата:
  В конце цикла они тускнеют и становятся заторможенными, а потом перелинивают и снова превращаются в активных и ярких, но чуть-чуть побольше.


А потом, ещё до окончания ВЭ, это самое « Eldar were “fading”: whether this was by the original design of Eru, or a “punishment” for the sins of the Eldar, is not certain». И я не знаю, что хуже: такая вот «оригинальная» задумка применительно к целой расе живых существ или «наказание» за какие-то грехи (какие? Они-то в чем успели провиниться???). Ну красота же. И сверху этот уже известный текст «The Númenórean Catastrophe & End of “Physical” Aman», тоже, кстати, включён в сборник.

Цитата:
Труд по необходимости им не нравился, глядь, кто б удивлялся, а я не буду.

Если этим гномам надо было самим впрягаться в плуг, то радости в таком труде действительно мало.((



 
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Ответ #41 - 09/20/21 :: 9:42pm

Allor   Вне Форума
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Loves A Dustbin , ишшо чего, с этим жить)))) Мало ли что человек за долгую жизнь наприкидывал, так и "колебаться вместе с генеральной линией"?)))) Все одно каждый толчок при своем хэдканоне сидит.
Если Профа потянуло на поздних этапах творчества на соцреализм, а мы его полюбили за эпичность и эскапизм, так за то и будем продолжать любить, любителей "реализьма" и без него хватает))))


Я бы вот тоже предпочла, чтобы мне не выдавали опять концепцию Валар из LT, я слишком как-то привыкла к тому, что это не "такие люди".

Наташ, пожалуй. Тем более что в LT они трогательные и мифологичные, ну и ладно бы, куда их еще тащить, сердешных?)
Но нолдор-изгнанники все в золоте повеселили, конечно, да. - да!!! Нолдр все такие "в голде/рыжье", прям конкретные такие элдар))))))) Кажется, у меня серия картинок, посвященных этому тому, пополнится...

 

Разница между мной и сумасшедшим в том, что я - не сумасшедший (с) С.Дали
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Ответ #42 - 09/20/21 :: 11:41pm

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Может, это как раз тот случай, когда вместо мистического вдохновения тексты пишутся рассудком?
 

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Ответ #43 - 09/21/21 :: 12:28am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Цитата:
«The Númenórean Catastrophe & End of “Physical” Aman»

Упс, что за текст, почему не знаю?  Это я сейчас выясню, что в "Акаллабет: Амандил" ничего нового не написала, да?
 

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Ответ #44 - 09/21/21 :: 12:59am

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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(мрачно)

Вот оно.

Цитата:
« Is Aman “removed” or destroyed at the Catastrophe?
It was physical. Therefore it could not be removed, without remaining visible as part of Arda or as a new satellite! It must either remain as a landmass bereft of its former inhabitants or be destroyed.
I think now that it is best that it should remain a physical landmass (America!). But as Manwë had already said to the Númenóreans: “It is not the land that is hallowed (and free of death), but it is hallowed by the dwellers there” – the Valar.
It would just become an ordinary land, an addition to Middle-earth, the European-African-Asiatic contiguous landmass. The flora and fauna (even if different in some [?items] from those of Middle-earth) would become ordinary beasts and plants with usual conditions of mortality.
Aman and Eressëa would be the memory of the Valar and Elves of the former land.
The Catastrophe would no doubt do great damage and change to the configuration of Aman. Partly, especially on West [sic; read “East”?] side, sunk into Sea.
But how then would the corporeal union of fëar and hröar be maintained in an Aman of memory only?
The answer, I think, is this.
The Catastrophe represents a definite intervention of Eru and therefore in a sense a change of the primal plan. It is a foretaste of the End of Arda. The situation is much later than “conversation of Finrod and Andreth”[2] and could not then be foreseen by anyone, not even Manwë. In a sense Eru moved forward the End of Arda as far as it concerned the Elves. They had fulfilled their function – and we approach the “Dominion of Men”. Hence the vast importance of the marriages of Beren and Tuor – providing continuity of the Elvish element! The tales of the Silmarillion and especially of Númenor and the Rings are in a twilight. We do not see as it were a catastrophic end, but viewed against the enormous stretch of ages the twilight period of 2nd/3rd Ages is surely quite short and abrupt!
The Elves are dying. They whether in Aman or outside will become fëar housed only in memory until the true End of Arda. They must await the issue of the War [?and] only then; and of their redemption foreglimpsed by Finrod:[3] for their true returning (corporeal or in Eru’s equivalent!) in Arda Remade.
NB Melkor (inside Eä) only really becomes evil after the achievement of Eä in which he played a great and powerful part (and in its early stages in accord with the fundamental Design of Eru). It was jealousy of Manwë and desire to dominate the Eruhíni that drove him mad. It was the matter of Arda (as a whole but particularly of Imbar)[4] that he had corrupted. The Stars were not (or most of them were not) affected.
He became more and more incapable (like Ungoliantë!) of extricating himself and finding scape in the vastness of Eä, and became more and more physically involved in it.»
 
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