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А вот и 13-й том! (Прочитано 15763 раз)
08/16/21 :: 10:19am

Рони   Вне Форума
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Ответ #1 - 08/16/21 :: 9:12pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Рони, огромное спасибо.

Начала читать.
Расстроилась.
Продолжаю читать.)))
 
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Ответ #2 - 08/16/21 :: 9:35pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Товарищи, а там хоть что-то новое есть? Или это как с "Детьми Хурина"?
 

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Ответ #3 - 08/16/21 :: 11:12pm

Рони   Вне Форума
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Элхэ Ниэннах писал(а) 08/16/21 :: 9:35pm:
Товарищи, а там хоть что-то новое есть? Или это как с "Детьми Хурина"?

Я тизер смотрела, есть. Например перевод возраста персонажей на наши мерки и хронология пробуждения у Куйвиэнен.
 
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Ответ #4 - 08/17/21 :: 1:35am

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Там есть достаточно любопытные вещи про эльфийское восприятие времени, рождение детей и взросление.
Много про соотношение валианских лет и «солнечных», причем применительно к Предначальной Эпохе и событиям в Эндорэ (1 валианский год:144 солнечных года). При переложении на ключевые события (пробуждение эльфов/пробуждение людей - обнаружение эльфов - Великий Поход - падение Утумно) получаются какие-то дико длительные промежутки времени:

«If we take VY 1000 as the probable date of the “Awakening” and 1085 of the “Finding” (by Oromë); 1090: beginning of the Assault of the Valar; 1102: Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë brought to Valinor; 1105: beginning of the Great March; 1115: separation of the Nandor; 1125: Eldar reach Beleriand; 1130: Thingol lost; 1133: Vanyar and Ñoldor land in Aman; then we must consider the matter of the Eldar, and the ages and position of Ingwë, etc.»

Ранее в соседнем тексте:
« Men must “awake” before the Captivity of Melkor. It is too late after the return to Angband; for there is not enough time: The Atani already partly civilized reach Beleriand c. 310. That is only about 310 Sun Years after Morgoth’s return!
In any case Morgoth has precious little time in which to build Angband. He escapes in 1495 and only 20 [sun-]years later (TY 1497) is already assailing Beleriand.
Plainly Utumno and Angband must be in the same place and, only partially destroyed, was quickly restored. Or, Angband must also have existed. A fort far west would be a good device for keeping the Valar out, and ill-informed of what was going on. Thus Melkor as soon as Elves awoke must have constructed Angband in the West as a further device – and he covered all northwest shores and the hinterland with darkness, obscuring the Sun.
But Angband was chiefly a place for making smoke and dark, and not yet very big. When all the Valar came against him, Melkor made only a feint of defending Angband, and then retreated to Utumno. This in the event was pretty well destroyed, but was inhabited by Balrogs. These were secretly (though Morgoth feigned submission) instructed to regain and extend Angband (quietly and [?within] fume) against his escape. Angband was therefore almost ready in 1495!
If (as in the Tale of Years) the Valar came forth in VY 1090 and Utumno was besieged in 1092 and destroyed in 1100, then Men must awake before VY 1090.
If they awoke in VY 1050 that would give 40 VYs, or 5,760 Sun Years in which Melkor could have dealings with them and corrupt them, before his captivity. The Atani entered Beleriand in 310 Bel. That is in the 22nd Sun-year of VY 1498. Men had then existed for 448 VYs + 22 SYs: i.e., 64,534 Sun Years, though doubtless insufficient scientifically (since that is only – we being in 1960 of the 7th Age – 16,000 years ago: total about 80,000), is adequate for purposes of the Silmarillion, etc.
But Elves when discovered in 1085 were already a people, though appear never yet to have met Men, who awoke much further east. ☞ Cuiviénen must be fairly far west (near centre of Endor?).
We may suppose Elves awoke at least 50 VYs sooner than Men (sc. 7,200 mortal years). This is about sufficient. But it would be better to reduce the time of Melkor’s dealing with Men, since the damage could be done in much less than 5,760 years of mortal life.
Let Melkor discover Men 1,440 years (that is, 10 VYs) before the Valar open attack in VY 1090. Men will therefore “awake” – the exact process will not be disclosed or discussed in the Silmarillion – some (little) time before VY 1080; say, 1079/1075.»

Я перечитала раз пять и зависла. Не могу представить подобные интервалы в условиях «нормального» течения времени за пределами Амана. За такой срок цивилизации успевают смениться… Озадачен
 
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Ответ #5 - 08/17/21 :: 4:43am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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(нервно) Не надо про течение времени, хотя бы временно, простите за тавтологию. А о природе там, геологии и вот это всё есть?
 

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Ответ #6 - 08/17/21 :: 9:34am

Рони   Вне Форума
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Элхэ Ниэннах писал(а) 08/17/21 :: 4:43am:
А о природе там, геологии и вот это всё есть?

Целую книгу пока не видела, но о природе обещали.
 
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Ответ #7 - 08/17/21 :: 9:48am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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(умножает 300 на 144; содрогается) А какого года это всё? И где бы можно в перспективе побрать в электронном виде?
 

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Ответ #8 - 08/17/21 :: 11:25am

Рони   Вне Форума
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Свежак. 2021 года, есть уже предзаказ, стоит порядка 30 евро, в твердой обложке. 464 страницы. Думаю, заказать, или paperback ждать.
 
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Ответ #9 - 08/17/21 :: 9:32pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Цитата:
А о природе там, геологии и вот это всё есть?

Должно быть, в том числе о природе Нуменора (из аннотации на иностранном толкинистском ресурсе: «Of particular note, given the impending Amazon series, are several texts detailing the lands, flora, and fauna of Númenor, and the lives of Númenóreans.»)

Текстолог на форуме толкин.су выложил уже переведённые выдержки из текстов, отсутствующих в превьюшке. Не знаю, как ему удалось их добыть.)) Например, о споре квенди перед Великим Походом (и о «первопредках» эльфов (числом 144), не желавших принимать приглашение, причём снова появляются Тата, Имин и Энэл из «счетной» сказки), о сельском хозяйстве у синдар, о настроениях в Нуменоре до затемнения. Но там кусочки.

Мне обещали помочь с заказом двух экземпляров The Nature of Middle-earth на Амазоне, книга выходит 2 сентября. Приедут - смогу поделиться.
 
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Ответ #10 - 09/13/21 :: 6:58pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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(неврастенически, понимая, что всё пропустила) Заказывать лучше через заграницу? В Россию доставка опять как крыло от самолёта стоит?
 

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Ответ #11 - 09/13/21 :: 7:51pm

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Можно электронную версию через Google Books купить. Если нет отвращения к чтению с экрана, а так да, доставка кусачая, зато стоимость самого издания на Amazon резко упала.

У меня есть текст в Google Books, там встроенное ограничение на копирование текста, но если что-то интересует (например, про ту же нуменорскую фауну), могу сюда принести, лимита должно хватить.
 
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Ответ #12 - 09/14/21 :: 4:05am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Очень. И фауна, и климат, и геология, и вот это вот всё. Пора проверять уже потихоньку.

Тоже несколько раз перечитала пассаж про течение времена. Пришла в ужас. Подумала, что надо пересчитывать. Осознала, что, в таком случае, мы имеем цивилизацию людей возрастом 50К лет на момент Исхода Нолдор,  каковая цивилизация ходит в шкурах и теряет волю при звуках арфы, а ещё пару тысяч лет спустя в массе своей не умеет строить из камня, ковать железо и хлеб растить. Сильно удивилась. Решила не пересчитывать ничего к такой-то матери, пусть, пожалуйста, валинорский год длится свои положенные 9,58 солнечных лет, и без Тингола, которому под 150К лет, мы тоже как-нибудь обойдёмся, наверное.
 

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Ответ #13 - 09/14/21 :: 7:59am

Loves A Dustbin   Вне Форума
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Вот для начала про живность:

“ As for he major animals, it is clear that there were none of the canine or related kinds. There were certainly no hounds or dogs (all of which were imported). There were no wolves. There were wild cats, the most hostile and untameable of the animals; but no large felines. There were a great number, however, of foxes, or related animals. Their chief food seems to have been animals which the Númenóreans called lopoldi. These existed in large numbers and multiplied swiftly, and were voracious herbivores; so that the foxes were esteemed as the best and most natural way of keeping them in order, and foxes were seldom hunted or molested. In return, or because their food-supply was otherwise abundant, the foxes seem never to have acquired the habit of preying upon the domestic fowl of the Númenóreans. The lopoldi would appear to have been rabbits, animals which had been quite unknown before in the north-western regions of Middle-earth.[1] The Númenóreans did not esteem them as food and were content to leave them to the foxes.

The woods of Númenor abounded in squirrels, mostly red, but some dark brown or black. These were all unafraid, and readily tamed. The women of Númenor were specially fond of them. Often they would live in trees near a homestead, and would come when invited into the house. In the short rivers and streams there were otters. Badgers were numerous. There were wild black swine in the woods; and in the west of the Mittalmar at the coming of the Edain were herds of wild kine, some white, some black. Deer were abundant on the grasslands and in and about the forest-eaves, red and fallow; and in the hills were roe-deer. But all seem to have been somewhat smaller of stature than their kin in Middle-earth. In the southern region there were beavers. About the coasts seals were abundant, especially in the north and west. And there were also many smaller animals, not often mentioned: such as mice and voles, or small preying beasts such as weasels. Hares are named; and other animals of uncertain kind: some that were not squirrels, but lived in trees, and were shy, not of men only; others that ran on the ground and burrowed, small and fat, but were neither rats nor rabbits. In the south there were some land-tortoises, of no great size; and also some small freshwater creatures of turtle-kind. The animals named ekelli seem to have been urchins or hedgehogs of large size, with long black quills. They were numerous in some parts, and treated with friendship, for they lived mostly upon worms and insects.

There seem to have been wild goats in the island, but whether the small horned sheep (which were one of the varieties of sheep-kind that the Númenóreans kept) were native or imported is not known. A small kind of horse, smaller than a donkey, black or dark brown, with flowing mane and tail, and sturdy rather than swift, is said to have been found in the Mittalmar by the settlers. They were soon tamed, but throve and were well-tended and loved. They were much used in the farms; and children used them for riding.
Many other beasts there were no doubt that are seldom named since they did not generally concern Men. All must have been named and described in the books of lore that perished.

Sea-fish were abundant all about the coasts of the island, and those that were good to eat were much used. Other beasts of the sea there were also off the shores: whales and narwhal, dolphins and porpoises, which the Númenóreans did not confuse with fish (lingwi), but classed with fish as nendili all those that lived wholly in the water and bred in the sea. Sharks the Númenóreans saw only upon their voyages, for whether by the “grace of the Valar” as the Númenóreans said, or for other cause they did not ever come near the shores of the island. Of inland fish we hear little. Of those that live in the sea partly, but enter the rivers at times, there were salmon in the Siril, and also in the Nunduinë, the river that flowed into the sea at Eldalondë, and on its way made the small lake of Nísinen (one of the few in Númenor) about three miles inland: it was so called because of the abundance of sweet-smelling shrubs and flowers that grew on its banks. Eels were abundant in the meres and marshes about the lower course of the Siril.

The birds of Númenor were beyond count, from the great eagles down to the tiny kirinki that were no bigger than wrens, but all scarlet, with high piping voices the sounds of which were on the edge of human hearing. The eagles were of several kinds; but all were held sacred to Manwë, and were never molested nor shot, not until the days of evil and the hatred of the Valar began. Not until then did they on their part molest men or prey on their beasts. From the days of Elros until the time of Tar-Ankalimon, son of Tar-Atanamir, some two thousand years, there was an eyrie of golden eagles in the summit of the tower of the king’s palace in Armenelos. There one pair ever dwelt and lived on the bounty of the king.
The birds that dwell near the sea, and swim or dive in it, and live upon fish, abode in Númenor in multitudes beyond reckoning. They were never killed or molested by intent by the Númenóreans, and were wholly friendly to them. Mariners said that were they blind they would know that their ship was drawing near home because of the great clamour of the shore-birds. When any ship approached the land seabirds in great flocks would arise and fly above it for no purpose but welcome and gladness. Some would accompany the ships on their voyages, even those that went to Middle-earth.

Inland the birds were not so numerous, but were nonetheless abundant. Some beside the eagles were birds of prey, such as the hawks and falcons of many kinds. There were ravens, especially in the north, and about the land other birds of their kin that live in flocks, daws and crows and about the sea-cliffs many choughs. Smaller song-birds with fair voices abounded in the fields, in the reedy meres, and in the woods. Many were little different from those of the lands from which the Edain came; but the birds of finch-kind were more varied and numerous and sweeter-voiced. There were some of small size all white, some all grey; and others all golden, that sang with great joy in long thrilling cadences through the spring and early summer. They had little fear of the Edain, who loved them. The caging of song-birds was thought an unkind deed. Nor was it necessary, for those that were “tame”, that is: who attached themselves of free will to a homestead, would for generations dwell near the same house, singing upon its roof or on the sills, or even in the solmar or chambers of those that welcomed them. The birds that dwelt in cages were for the most part reared from young whose parents died by mischance or were slain by birds of prey; but even they were mostly free to go and come if they would. Nightingales were found, though nowhere very abundant, in most parts of Númenor save the north. In the northern parts there were large white owls, but no other birds of this race.

Of the native trees and plants little is recorded. Though some trees were brought in seed or scion from Middle-earth, and others (as has been said) came from Eressëa, there seems to have been an abundance of timber when the Edain landed. Of trees already known to them it is said that they missed the hornbeam, the small maple, and the flowering chestnut; but found others that were new to them: the wych-elm, the holm-oak, tall maples, and the sweet chestnut. In the Hyarrostar they found also walnuts; and the laurinquë in which they delighted for its flowers, for it had no other use. This name they gave it (‘golden rain’) because of its long-hanging clusters of yellow flowers; and some who had heard from the Eldar of Laurelin, the Golden Tree of Valinor, believed that it came from that great Tree, being brought in seed thither by the Eldar; but it was not so. Wild apple, cherry, and pear also grew in Númenor; but those that they grew in their orchards came from Middle-earth, gifts from the Eldar. In the Hyarnustar the vine grew wild; but the grape-vines of the Númenóreans seem also to have come from the Eldar. Of the many plants and flowers of field and wood little is now recorded or remembered; but old songs speak often of the lilies, the many kinds of which, some small, some tall and fair, some single-bloomed, some hung with many bells and trumpets, and all fragrant, were the delight of the Edain.
To the land the Edain brought many things from Middle-earth: sheep, and kine, and horses, and dogs; fruiting trees; and grain. Water-fowl such as birds of duck-kind or geese they found before them; but others they brought also and blended with the native races. Geese and ducks were domestic fowls on their farms; and there also they kept multitudes of doves or pigeons in great houses or dovecotes, mainly for their eggs. Hen-fowl they had not known and found none in the island; though soon after the great voyages began mariners brought back cocks and hens from the southern and eastern lands,[4] and they throve in Númenor, where many of them escaped and lived in the wild, though harried by the foxes.

Though the Númenóreans used horses for journeys and for the delight of riding they had little interest in racing them as a test of speed. In country sports displays of agility, both of horse and rider, were to be seen; but more esteemed were exhibitions of understanding between master and beast. The Númenóreans trained their horses to hear and understand calls (by voice or whistling) from great distances; and also, where there was great love between men or women and their favorite steeds, they could (or so it is said in ancient tales) summon them at need by their thought alone.[10]

So it was also with their dogs. For the Númenóreans kept dogs, especially in the country, partly by ancestral tradition, since they had few useful purposes any longer. The Númenóreans did not hunt for sport or food; and they had only in a few places upon the borders of wild lands any great need of watch-dogs. In the sheep-rearing regions, such as that of Emerië, they had dogs specially trained to help the shepherds. In the earlier centuries country-men also had dogs trained to assist in warding off or tracking down predatory beasts and birds (which to the Númenóreans was only an occasional necessary labour and not an amusement). Dogs were seldom seen in the towns. In the farms they were never chained or tethered; but neither did they dwell in the houses of men; though they were often welcomed to the central solma or hall, where the chief fire burned: especially the old faithful dogs of long service, or at times the puppies. It was men rather than women who had a liking to keep dogs as “friends”. Women loved more the wild (or “unowned”) birds and beasts, and they were especially fond of squirrels, of which there were great numbers in the wooded country.

Of these matters more is said elsewhere, concerning the tame (or “owned”) animals of Númenor, the native beasts and birds, and the imported.”
 
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Ответ #14 - 09/14/21 :: 6:11pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Спасибо огромное.

Цитата:
...there were none of the canine or related kinds <...> There were a great number, however, of foxes, or related animals

Я сейчас умру. Прямо на этом месте и умру.
Professor Tolkien was very contrasistent, чего уж.
 

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