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Унголиант: этимология (Прочитано 2723 раз)
11/20/03 :: 2:06pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   На Форуме
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Собственно, subj. Господа лингвисты, очень вас прошу дать максимально полную развернутую справку по этимологии слова ("отвергнутые" варианты этимологии включительно). По статьям Ardalambion я вчера уже прогулялась, но боюсь, что там не все...
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #1 - 11/21/03 :: 7:47pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   На Форуме
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(с некоторой обидой) Ну, и где все, когда они нужны?..  ???  Нерешительный
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #2 - 11/22/03 :: 1:01am

R2R   Вне Форума
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А можно уточнить? Именно это слово - или прогресс именований в толкиновских текстах  Унголиант как явления?

Ну, то есть, вот. "Этимологии".

SLIG-  *sligne, *slinge:  N thling  spider, spider's  web, cobweb.  Q line  cobweb;  N  thlingril  [r  uncertain]  spider. Q  lia fine  thread, spider  filament  (*liga);  N  thle,  Q  liante spider.  Cf. Ungoliante  [UNG], N  Deldu-thling [DO3, DYEL.].                                              

UNG-   *ungwe:   Q   ungwe    gloom;   ungo    cloud,   dark    shadow.   Cf.    Ungweliante,  Ungoliante  the  Spider,  ally  of  Morgoth (cf.  SLIG). Ilk.  ungol  darkness,  ungor  black,  dark,  gloomy.  In  N  not  used  except in name  Ungoliant,  which  is  really  taken from  Q. The  name of  the Spider in N is Delduthling (see DYEL, DO3).                                       

Оно? (Есть ещё кое-что в QL и GL, попозже раскопаю, что смогу)

Или (DYEL, DO3), на которые тут ссылки, тоже нужны?

Delduthling - просто слово другое, с самостоятельной этимологией. А есть ещё Gwerlum, Wirilome, Moru - и это всё о ней, причём это не всё.  Улыбка

Надо? Там много.
 
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Ответ #3 - 11/22/03 :: 4:23pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   На Форуме
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Ой, спасибо! Улыбка Надо, надо, чем больше, тем лучше!
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #4 - 11/22/03 :: 8:07pm

R2R   Вне Форума
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Ну тогда продолжение банкета. Улыбка
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"Этимологии":

DYEL- feel fear and disgust; abhor. EN delos, deloth (probably < del + gos, goth) abhorrence, detestation, loathing, cf. Dor-deloth Loathly Land; deleb horrible, abominable, loathsome; delw hateful, deadly, fell; cf. Daedhelos Shadow of Abomination, Deldu(w)ath Deadly Nightshade, a name of Taur-na-Fuin, Delduthling, N name of Ungoliante [DAY, DO3]. Q yelma loathing, yelwa loathsome, yelta- to loathe.

DO3, DO- Q lo night, a night; lome Night, night-time, shades of night. ON dogme, dougme, doume; EN daw night-time, gloom;  du (associated with  NDU) nightfall, late evening - in EN night,  dead of night is fuin; Du(w)ath night-shade; dur dark, sombre; cf.  Q lona dark. Ilk. daum = N daw. Cf. N durion a Dark-elf =  duredel. Q lomelinde nightingale; N dulind, dulin(n). Cf.  Del-du-thling [DYEL.,  SLIG.]                                                                  

HoME 1 - App:

Ungoliont See Ungwe Lianti.

Ungwe Lianti, Ungweliant(e) Under a queried root GUNGU QL gives ungwe 'spider, especially Ungwe the Gloom-weaver, usually Ungwelianti'. The second element is from root LI + ya 'entwine', with derivatives lia 'twine', liante 'tendril', liantasse 'vine'. In GL the name as originally entered was Gungliont, as also first written in the text (p. 172); later this was changed to 'Ungweliont or Ungoliont'. The second element is assigned to root li- (lind 'twine').

Gwerlum This is given in GL with the translation 'Gloomweaver', gwer- 'wind, turn, bend', but also used in the
sense of the root gwidh- 'plait, weave'. QL has a not GWERE'whirl, twirl, twist', but the name Wirilome of the great Spider is placed under the root GWIDI, whence also windele 'loom', winda 'woof', wiste 'weft'. The name of the great eddy Wiruin (p. 167), not in the dictionaries, must belong here. For the element -lome, -lum see Hisilome.

The root LOMO has many derivatives, as lome dusk, gloom, darkness', lomear 'child of gloom' (cf. Lomearni), lomin 'shade, shadow', lomir'I hide', lomba 'secret'. Cf. Wirilome. Gnomish words are lom 'gloom, shade', lomin 'shadowy, gloomy' and noun 'gloom'. so Dor Lomin. The same element occurs in Lomendanar 'Days of Gloaming'.


HoME 1-6:

Therefore he seeks until he finds a dark cavern in the hills, and webs of darkness lie about so that the black air might be
felt heavy and choking about one's face and hands. Very deep and winding were those ways having a subterranean outlet
on the sea as the ancient books say, and here on a time were the Moon and Sun imprisoned afterward, o for here dwelt the
primeval spirit Moru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many
names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came
between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been; and she it is who
loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider, spinning a clinging gossamer of gloom that
catches in its mesh stars and moons and all bright things that sail the airs. Indeed it was because of her labours that so little
of that overflowing light of the Two Trees flowed ever into the world, for she sucked light greedily, and it fed her, but
she brought forth only that darkness that is a denial of all light. Ungwe Lianti the great spider who enmeshes did the
Eldar call her, naming her also Wirilome or Gloomweaver, whence still do the Noldoli speak of her as Ungoliont the
spider or as Gwerlum the Black.

HoME 2-5:

The building of Wingelot. He searches for Elwing and is blown far to the South. Wirilome. He escapes eastward. He goes back westward; he descries the Bay of Faery. The Tower of Pearl, the magic isles, the great shadows. He finds Kor empty; he sails back, crusted with dust and his face afire. He learns of Elwing's foundering. He sitteth on the Isle of Seabirds. Elwing as a seamew comes to him. He sets sail over the margent of the world.
---------------------------------------------
Fourth part. Whereas B merely refers to Earendel's 'many wanderings, occupying several years' in his quest for Valinor, C gives some glimpses of what they were to be, as Wingilot was driven to the south and then into the west. The encounter with Ungweliante on the western voyage is curious; it is said in The Tale of the Sun and Noon that 'Melko held the North and Ungweliant the South' (see I. 182, 200).
-----------------------------
One or two other points may be noticed in this outline. The great spider, called Ungweliante' in C but here Wirilome ('Gloomweaver', seeI. 152), is here encountered by Earendel in the far South, not as in C on his westward voyage: see p. 256. Elwing in this version comes to Earendel as a seabird (as she does in The Silmarillion, p. 247), which is not said in C and even seems to be denied.

HoME 2-6:

(7) Urwendi imprisoned by Moru (upset out of the boat by Melko and only the Moon has been magic since). The Faring Forth and the Battle of Erumani would release her and rekindle the Magic Sun. This 'upsetting' of the Sun-ship by Melko and the loss of the Sun's 'magic' is referred to also in (4), where it is added that Urwendi fell into the sea and met her 'death'. In the tale of The Theft of Melko it is said (I. 151) that the cavern in which Melko met Ungweliant was the place where the Sun and Moon were imprisoned afterwards, for 'the primeval spirit Moru' was indeed Ungweliant (see I. 261).

HoME 4-2:

There he  finds  Ungoliant,  Gloomweaver,  who dwells in a cleft of the mountains,  and  sucks  up  light or  shining things  to spin  them out again in webs  of black  and choking  darkness, fog,  and  gloom.

HoME 4-3:

7. Ungoliant > Ungoliante at both occurrences.                               

HoME 4-6:

2990-1. Morgoth   now   completed   his   designs   and  with   the  aid  of  Ungoliante out  of Arvalin stole back  into Valinor,  and destroyed  the Trees,

HoME 5-2:

Ungoliant  (p. 164):  introduced for agreement with  the occurrence of the name in The Lord of the Rings; QS Ungoliante'.                            

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Если какой-то текст из перечисленных будет нужен целиком, могу прислать.

Было бы ещё неплохо, если бы кто-нибудь, у кого есть Qenya Lexicon и Gnomish Lexicon, сказал, что там говорится вот на эти статьи:

QL
ungwe, ungwi 98L; Ungwe, ung-we 98L; Ungwe Fuiva 81L, 103R; Ungwe Lianti 98L; Ungwe-Tuita 80R
Unweliante (?Ungwelianti) 98L
lia 53R; lia, liar 53R
liantasse 53R
liante 53R

GL
Ungoliont 98L
Ungweliont 98L
 
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Ответ #5 - 12/04/03 :: 3:22pm

Edricson   Вне Форума
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ungwe spider, esp. Ungwe the Gloom-weaver. Gn. gung. Usually Ungweliante, Gn. Gungliont

Ungweliante might also be Ungwelianti.GL s.vv. gung 'spider' and Gungliont 'the spider of night' cites Q. cognates ung-we and Ungweliante. Both of these entries in GL were struck out and replaced with ungwi 'spider' and Ungweliont or Ungoliont = Ungweliante, which suggests this root was later conceivedof as *UNU. Cf. I 270-1 s.v. Ungwe Lianti.

%--

Ruamoore The home of Ungwe-Tuita the Spider of Night.

Ungwe-Tuita as a name of the great Spider occurs nowhere else; the second element might be related to tuita 'to bud, burst, burgeon, grow' s. b. TUYU. The R-section of Ql predated the W-section (see the Foreword), and there under the root GWIDI- it is said that Wiriloome = Ungwe Fuiva. This later form of the Spirder's name is the one used in PME, which gives Ruamoore 'home of Ungwe Fuiva's dwelling'; ruu (1) 'dwelling, village', (2) steadfastness; and ruella 'hamlet'.

%-- GWIDI-

'windele looom
'winda woof
'wiste weft
'Wiriloome = Ungwe Fuiva

Forms for all these words with v < w occur.

WIDI >> GWIDI. PME gives Ungwe Fuiva in parentheses under hui or fui 'dark', 'murk', see also the annotation to RU'U. GL Gwerlum 'Gloom-weaver' equates Q Wiriloome. Cf. I 254 s. v. Gwerlum

%--

Gwerlum Gloom-weaver cf. Gungliont

Gungliont the spider of night (Q Ungweliante). Struck out in blue crayon.
 
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Ответ #6 - 12/04/03 :: 3:33pm
Маруся   Экс-Участник

 
Чувствуется, что о необходимости переводить цитаты все радостно забыли...  Печаль
А мне тоже интересно!
(Пытаться воспользоваться он-лайн переводчиком - не предлагать!  Злой Или сразу помещать результаты в "Юмор".)  Подмигивание
 
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Ответ #7 - 12/04/03 :: 11:51pm

R2R   Вне Форума
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Упс.
Тексты - ещё куда ни шло, могу постепенно как-нибудь, криво, но перевести. Сейчас мне совершенно некогда, но как только - так сразу.
А вот словарные статьи - увы.
 
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