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Middle-Earth >> Лингвистика >> Унголиант: этимология http://www.elhe.ru/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1091814894 Сообщение написано Элхэ Ниэннах в 11/20/03 :: 2:06pm |
Заголовок: Унголиант: этимология Создано Элхэ Ниэннах в 11/20/03 :: 2:06pm
Собственно, subj. Господа лингвисты, очень вас прошу дать максимально полную развернутую справку по этимологии слова ("отвергнутые" варианты этимологии включительно). По статьям Ardalambion я вчера уже прогулялась, но боюсь, что там не все...
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Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано Элхэ Ниэннах в 11/21/03 :: 7:47pm
(с некоторой обидой) Ну, и где все, когда они нужны?.. ??? :-/
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Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано R2R в 11/22/03 :: 1:01am
А можно уточнить? Именно это слово - или прогресс именований в толкиновских текстах Унголиант как явления?
Ну, то есть, вот. "Этимологии". SLIG- *sligne, *slinge: N thling spider, spider's web, cobweb. Q line cobweb; N thlingril [r uncertain] spider. Q lia fine thread, spider filament (*liga); N thle, Q liante spider. Cf. Ungoliante [UNG], N Deldu-thling [DO3, DYEL.]. UNG- *ungwe: Q ungwe gloom; ungo cloud, dark shadow. Cf. Ungweliante, Ungoliante the Spider, ally of Morgoth (cf. SLIG). Ilk. ungol darkness, ungor black, dark, gloomy. In N not used except in name Ungoliant, which is really taken from Q. The name of the Spider in N is Delduthling (see DYEL, DO3). Оно? (Есть ещё кое-что в QL и GL, попозже раскопаю, что смогу) Или (DYEL, DO3), на которые тут ссылки, тоже нужны? Delduthling - просто слово другое, с самостоятельной этимологией. А есть ещё Gwerlum, Wirilome, Moru - и это всё о ней, причём это не всё. :) Надо? Там много. |
Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано Элхэ Ниэннах в 11/22/03 :: 4:23pm
Ой, спасибо! :) Надо, надо, чем больше, тем лучше!
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Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано R2R в 11/22/03 :: 8:07pm
Ну тогда продолжение банкета. :)
------------------------------------------ "Этимологии": DYEL- feel fear and disgust; abhor. EN delos, deloth (probably < del + gos, goth) abhorrence, detestation, loathing, cf. Dor-deloth Loathly Land; deleb horrible, abominable, loathsome; delw hateful, deadly, fell; cf. Daedhelos Shadow of Abomination, Deldu(w)ath Deadly Nightshade, a name of Taur-na-Fuin, Delduthling, N name of Ungoliante [DAY, DO3]. Q yelma loathing, yelwa loathsome, yelta- to loathe. DO3, DO- Q lo night, a night; lome Night, night-time, shades of night. ON dogme, dougme, doume; EN daw night-time, gloom; du (associated with NDU) nightfall, late evening - in EN night, dead of night is fuin; Du(w)ath night-shade; dur dark, sombre; cf. Q lona dark. Ilk. daum = N daw. Cf. N durion a Dark-elf = duredel. Q lomelinde nightingale; N dulind, dulin(n). Cf. Del-du-thling [DYEL., SLIG.] HoME 1 - App: Ungoliont See Ungwe Lianti. Ungwe Lianti, Ungweliant(e) Under a queried root GUNGU QL gives ungwe 'spider, especially Ungwe the Gloom-weaver, usually Ungwelianti'. The second element is from root LI + ya 'entwine', with derivatives lia 'twine', liante 'tendril', liantasse 'vine'. In GL the name as originally entered was Gungliont, as also first written in the text (p. 172); later this was changed to 'Ungweliont or Ungoliont'. The second element is assigned to root li- (lind 'twine'). Gwerlum This is given in GL with the translation 'Gloomweaver', gwer- 'wind, turn, bend', but also used in the sense of the root gwidh- 'plait, weave'. QL has a not GWERE'whirl, twirl, twist', but the name Wirilome of the great Spider is placed under the root GWIDI, whence also windele 'loom', winda 'woof', wiste 'weft'. The name of the great eddy Wiruin (p. 167), not in the dictionaries, must belong here. For the element -lome, -lum see Hisilome. The root LOMO has many derivatives, as lome dusk, gloom, darkness', lomear 'child of gloom' (cf. Lomearni), lomin 'shade, shadow', lomir'I hide', lomba 'secret'. Cf. Wirilome. Gnomish words are lom 'gloom, shade', lomin 'shadowy, gloomy' and noun 'gloom'. so Dor Lomin. The same element occurs in Lomendanar 'Days of Gloaming'. HoME 1-6: Therefore he seeks until he finds a dark cavern in the hills, and webs of darkness lie about so that the black air might be felt heavy and choking about one's face and hands. Very deep and winding were those ways having a subterranean outlet on the sea as the ancient books say, and here on a time were the Moon and Sun imprisoned afterward, o for here dwelt the primeval spirit Moru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been; and she it is who loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider, spinning a clinging gossamer of gloom that catches in its mesh stars and moons and all bright things that sail the airs. Indeed it was because of her labours that so little of that overflowing light of the Two Trees flowed ever into the world, for she sucked light greedily, and it fed her, but she brought forth only that darkness that is a denial of all light. Ungwe Lianti the great spider who enmeshes did the Eldar call her, naming her also Wirilome or Gloomweaver, whence still do the Noldoli speak of her as Ungoliont the spider or as Gwerlum the Black. HoME 2-5: The building of Wingelot. He searches for Elwing and is blown far to the South. Wirilome. He escapes eastward. He goes back westward; he descries the Bay of Faery. The Tower of Pearl, the magic isles, the great shadows. He finds Kor empty; he sails back, crusted with dust and his face afire. He learns of Elwing's foundering. He sitteth on the Isle of Seabirds. Elwing as a seamew comes to him. He sets sail over the margent of the world. --------------------------------------------- Fourth part. Whereas B merely refers to Earendel's 'many wanderings, occupying several years' in his quest for Valinor, C gives some glimpses of what they were to be, as Wingilot was driven to the south and then into the west. The encounter with Ungweliante on the western voyage is curious; it is said in The Tale of the Sun and Noon that 'Melko held the North and Ungweliant the South' (see I. 182, 200). ----------------------------- One or two other points may be noticed in this outline. The great spider, called Ungweliante' in C but here Wirilome ('Gloomweaver', seeI. 152), is here encountered by Earendel in the far South, not as in C on his westward voyage: see p. 256. Elwing in this version comes to Earendel as a seabird (as she does in The Silmarillion, p. 247), which is not said in C and even seems to be denied. HoME 2-6: (7) Urwendi imprisoned by Moru (upset out of the boat by Melko and only the Moon has been magic since). The Faring Forth and the Battle of Erumani would release her and rekindle the Magic Sun. This 'upsetting' of the Sun-ship by Melko and the loss of the Sun's 'magic' is referred to also in (4), where it is added that Urwendi fell into the sea and met her 'death'. In the tale of The Theft of Melko it is said (I. 151) that the cavern in which Melko met Ungweliant was the place where the Sun and Moon were imprisoned afterwards, for 'the primeval spirit Moru' was indeed Ungweliant (see I. 261). HoME 4-2: There he finds Ungoliant, Gloomweaver, who dwells in a cleft of the mountains, and sucks up light or shining things to spin them out again in webs of black and choking darkness, fog, and gloom. HoME 4-3: 7. Ungoliant > Ungoliante at both occurrences. HoME 4-6: 2990-1. Morgoth now completed his designs and with the aid of Ungoliante out of Arvalin stole back into Valinor, and destroyed the Trees, HoME 5-2: Ungoliant (p. 164): introduced for agreement with the occurrence of the name in The Lord of the Rings; QS Ungoliante'. ------------------------------------------ Если какой-то текст из перечисленных будет нужен целиком, могу прислать. Было бы ещё неплохо, если бы кто-нибудь, у кого есть Qenya Lexicon и Gnomish Lexicon, сказал, что там говорится вот на эти статьи: QL ungwe, ungwi 98L; Ungwe, ung-we 98L; Ungwe Fuiva 81L, 103R; Ungwe Lianti 98L; Ungwe-Tuita 80R Unweliante (?Ungwelianti) 98L lia 53R; lia, liar 53R liantasse 53R liante 53R GL Ungoliont 98L Ungweliont 98L |
Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано Edricson в 12/04/03 :: 3:22pm
ungwe spider, esp. Ungwe the Gloom-weaver. Gn. gung. Usually Ungweliante, Gn. Gungliont
Ungweliante might also be Ungwelianti.GL s.vv. gung 'spider' and Gungliont 'the spider of night' cites Q. cognates ung-we and Ungweliante. Both of these entries in GL were struck out and replaced with ungwi 'spider' and Ungweliont or Ungoliont = Ungweliante, which suggests this root was later conceivedof as *UNU. Cf. I 270-1 s.v. Ungwe Lianti. %-- Ruamoore The home of Ungwe-Tuita the Spider of Night. Ungwe-Tuita as a name of the great Spider occurs nowhere else; the second element might be related to tuita 'to bud, burst, burgeon, grow' s. b. TUYU. The R-section of Ql predated the W-section (see the Foreword), and there under the root GWIDI- it is said that Wiriloome = Ungwe Fuiva. This later form of the Spirder's name is the one used in PME, which gives Ruamoore 'home of Ungwe Fuiva's dwelling'; ruu (1) 'dwelling, village', (2) steadfastness; and ruella 'hamlet'. %-- GWIDI- 'windele looom 'winda woof 'wiste weft 'Wiriloome = Ungwe Fuiva Forms for all these words with v < w occur. WIDI >> GWIDI. PME gives Ungwe Fuiva in parentheses under hui or fui 'dark', 'murk', see also the annotation to RU'U. GL Gwerlum 'Gloom-weaver' equates Q Wiriloome. Cf. I 254 s. v. Gwerlum %-- Gwerlum Gloom-weaver cf. Gungliont Gungliont the spider of night (Q Ungweliante). Struck out in blue crayon. |
Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано Маруся в 12/04/03 :: 3:33pm
Чувствуется, что о необходимости переводить цитаты все радостно забыли... :(
А мне тоже интересно! (Пытаться воспользоваться он-лайн переводчиком - не предлагать! >:( Или сразу помещать результаты в "Юмор".) ;) |
Заголовок: Re: Унголиант: этимология Создано R2R в 12/04/03 :: 11:51pm
Упс.
Тексты - ещё куда ни шло, могу постепенно как-нибудь, криво, но перевести. Сейчас мне совершенно некогда, но как только - так сразу. А вот словарные статьи - увы. |
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