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Э-э... а у нас точно используется конница в I Эпоху? Нуменорцы-то ее не использовали, если мне не изменяет память - у них кони были для охоты и состязаний...

Максимус, простите, я некорректно сформулировала.  Я сомневалась в наличии кавалерии у эльфов отдельно, а отсутствие кавалерии у нуменорцев - это, разумеется, второй вопрос, и ко II же Эпохе относящийся.
Больше так не буду

Конные лучники гонявшие Глаурунга не в счёт?

(в растерянности) А нельзя менее агрессивно, господа? Между сомнением и отрицанием есть некоторая разница, нет? Так вот, я, кажется, ничего не отрицала. Ну, хорошо, хорошо, теперь я не буду задавать вопросов, если в чем-то сомневаюсь...

Уважаемый Максимус, пожалуйста, не пишите три сообщения по одному предложению. Вы можете исправить первоначальное сообщение.

Цитата:

Начну с конца. Вошло, вошло, Сильм и Серые Анналы, например.
А использование простое: конные лучники, которым нет нужды мчаться грудью на копья. Возможно, была копейная конница, но это надо искать подтверждение, потому как версия о Маблунге Тяжелоруком с копьем и верхом плохо катит, раз он ехал на охоту. Пики, кстати, орками I эпохи не применялись, но у них оружие было пострашней - сложноставные луки, и меткость орочьих лучников источники нехотя признают. Эльфы, конечно, были еще лучше, но все равно мчаться на дисциплинированную пехоту - копейщиков в доспехах и с щитами, с поддержкой лучников - в качестве конного копейщика я бы не решился.

Тьфу ты, Маблунг то был пешим с копьем на охоте. Ошибочка вышла.

Серые Анналы.
Год 60. Fingolfin  and  Fingon  held  Hithlum  and  had  their  abode  and chief fortress at Eithel Sirion; and they  had horsemen  also that rode upon the fields of Ardgalen,  for from  few their  horses had increased  swiftly, and  the grass  of Ardgalen  was yet  rich and green. Of those horses many of  the sires  came from  Valinor, and were given to  Fingolfin by  Maidros in  atonement of  his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar. [The horses  are here  said to have  been  'given to  Fingolfin by  Maidros in  atonement of  his losses, for they had been carried by  ship to  Losgar'.. – With Beren's words to Curufin's horse (3295 - 7): “dream thee back in Valinor, // whence came of old thy mighty race” cf. The Silmarillion p. 119, where it is told that 'many of the sires' of the horses  of  the  Noldor   of  Hithlum   who  rode   on  Ard-galen   came  from Valinor.]
Год 260. Then  Fingon,  prince  of   Hithlum,  rode against  him  with  archers  upon   horseback,  and   hemmed  him round  with  a ring  of swift  riders. And  Glaurung in  turn was dismayed,  for he  could not  endure their  darts, being  not yet come to his full armoury; and he fled back to hell, and  came not forth  again for  many years.
Год 455. Celegorn  and  Curufin  held  strong  forces  behind  Aglon,  and many  horsed  archers,  but  they  were overthrown,  and Celegorn and  Curufin  hardly  escaped...
There  he would  have been  slain, but  Celegorn and Curufin came up with their riders,  and such  other force  as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and  stemmed the  tide for a  while;  and  thus  Orodreth  escaped  and came  to Nargothrond. [Ср.: «Маэглин»: And of Celegorm  he  got  horses  surpassing  swift,  and  the promise  of other aid. … So  ere Eol  had ridden  half the way   over   Himlad   he   was  waylaid   by  well-armed   horsemen,  who forced  him  to  go with  them to  their lord  Curufin.]
Год 462, Хитлум. Then  the Eldar  had the  victory and the Orcs  broke and  fled, pursued  by the  horsed archers  even to the Iron Mountains.
Год 496. Thingol, therefore, sent Mablung  after  her,   with  many   hardy  march-wards,   and  some riders,  to  guard  her... There  Mablung  set  a  guard  of   riders  about Morwen  and  her  daughter, and  forbade them  go further. … Seeing  the  onset  of  Glaurung   the  guards   upon  Amon Ethir sought to lead the ladies away,  and fly  with them  with all speed  back  eastwards;  but  the  wind bore  the blank  mists upon them,  and  their  horses  were  maddened  by   the  dragon-stench, and  were  ungovernable, and  ran this  way and  that, so  that some were  dashed  against  trees and  slain, and  others were  borne far away. 

Сильмариллион.
Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years.
But their chief fortress was at Eithel Sirion in the east of Ered Wethrin, whence they kept watch upon Ard-galen; and their cavalry rode upon that plain even to the shadow of Thangorodrim, for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-galen was rich and green. Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar.
Between the arms of Gelion was the ward of Maglor, and here in one place the hills failed altogether: there it was that the Orcs came into East Beleriand before the Third Battle. Therefore the Noldor held strength of cavalry In the plains at that place; and the people of Caranthir fortified the mountains to the east of Maglor's Gap.
And before Eol had ridden far across the Himlad he was waylaid by the riders of Curufin, and taken to their lord.
[455] The watch-fires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum.
Then the Orcs broke and fled, and the Eldar had the victory, and their horsed archers pursued them even into the Iron Mountains.
Then Celegorm turned his horse, and spurred it upon Beren, purposing to ride him down; but Curufin swerving stooped and lifted Luthien to his saddle, for he was a strong and cunning horseman. … Then Beren throttled Curufin; but death was near him, for Celegorm rode upon him with a spear. in that hour Huan forsook the service or Celegorm, and sprang upon him, so that his horse swerved aside, and would not approach Beren because of the terror of the great hound.
Celegorm took him beside him on his horse, and the brothers made then as if to ride away; and Beren turned away and took no heed of their words. But Curufin, being filled with shame and malice, took the bow of Celegorm and shot back as they went; and the arrow was aimed at Lúthien. Huan leaping caught it in his mouth; but Curufin shot again, and Beren sprang before Lúthien, and the dart smote him in the breast.
Now his [Гвиндора] wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host.
Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Túrin, and the heart of the host was upheld, as he rode on the right hand of Orodreth.

Лэ о Лейтиан:
and horses proud with braided mane,
with shining bit and silver rein…
Curufin, stooping, to saddlebow [седельную луку]
with mighty arm did Luthien throw…
Up rode Celegorm with his spear, 3020
and bitter death was Beren near…
but baying Huan sudden sprang
before his master's face with fang 3025
white-gleaming, and with bristling hair,
as if he on boar or wolf did stare.
The horse in terror leaped aside,
and Celegorm in anger cried…
[А вот так и мог стрелять конный лучник:] He swift from horse did leap,
his brother lifted from the ground;
then bow of yew with gold wire bound 3085
he strung, and shaft he shooting sent,
as heedless hand in hand they went;
a dwarvish dart and cruelly hooked.
They never turned nor backward looked.

Лэ о Лейтиан вновь начатое:

saddled their horses, trussed their gear,
and went with hound and bow and spear,
alone; for none of all the folk
would follow them. No word they spoke,
but sounded horns, and rode away 85
like wind at end of stormy day.

Древнейшие анналы Белерианда (vol. 4):
[Фингон и Финголфин] and their horses multiplied for the grass  was  good.  Of  those  horses many  of the sires came from Valinor.
… but Fingon  with   his  horsed archers  rode  up  and   Glomund  could   not  yet withstand their darts, and fled back and  came not forth again for a long time.

Квента Нолдоринва (vol. 4):
There   Beren  choked Curufin,  but  his  death  was  very  nigh from  Celegorm, who rode back with his spear. … Then the  brothers rode  off, but shot  back  at Huan treacherously and  at Luthien. 

«Поздние анналы Белерианда» (версия 2) // HoME. Vol. 5.

And all  Eredwethion  they  manned  and  watched  Bladorion  thence, and their cavalry rode upon the plain even to the feet of  the mountains of Morgoth, and  their horses  multiplied, for  the grass  was good. Of  those  horses  many  of the  sires came  from Valinor,  and were given back to Fingolfin by the sons of Feanor  at the  settlement of the feud.
… and  the  riders  of  the  folk  of  Feanor  rode  often  upon the  vast   northern  plain,   Lothland  the   wide  and   empty,  east of  Bladorion,  lest   Morgoth  attempted   any  sortie   towards  East Beleriand.  ... And between  the  arms  of  Gelion  was  the  ward of  Maglor, and  here in one place the hills failed altogether; and  here it  was that  the Orcs came  into  East  Beleriand  before  the  Second Battle.  Therefore the Gnomes  held  much  cavalry  in  the  plains  at  that  place;  and the people  of Cranthir  fortified the  mountains to  the east  of Maglor's Gap. ... But  they  overwhelmed  the  riders of  the folk  of Feanor upon  Lothland,  for  Glomund  came  thither,  and   passed  through Maglor's  Gap,  and  destroyed  all  the  land  between the  arms of Gelion.
Then Fingon, prince of Gnomes,  rode up  against him  with his  horsed archers, and Glomund could  not yet  withstand their  darts, being  not yet come to his full armoury; and he fled back to  hell, and  came not forth again for a long time.

UT:
Гондолин: Straightway there issued riders from the towers, but before those of the north tower came one upon a white horse; and he dismounted and strode towards them.
Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.
Horses were brought (a grey horse for Tuor); and they rode to Gondolin.
Нарн И Хин Хурин: "What boon would you have of King Thingol?" said Beleg to the boy. "I would be one of his knights, to ride against Morgoth, and avenge my father," said Turin.
Thus it was that Thingol sent out a larger company than he had at first intended, and there were ten riders among them with spare horses. [Сопровождение Морвен.]

Падение Гондолина:
Then came over the plain riders who bore breathless tidings from those who kept vigil on the peaks…
Behind them came the host of the Harp, and this was a battalion of brave warriors; but their leader Salgant was a craven, and he fawned upon Meglin. They were dight with tassels of silver and tassels of gold, and a harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon a field of black; but Salgant bore one of gold, and he alone rode into battle of all the sons of the Gondothlim, and he was heavy and squat.

kingofkingz - 2/11/2004 at 19:14
Hi everyone! i was just wondering how many elves (Noldor) actually went back the Middle Earth. These figures are stated in The Silmarillion:

-The High Elven King Turgon lead 10,000 elven warriors in battle.
-Turgon took a 1/3 of Fingolfin host.
-Feanor led a smaller host on ships

Turgon, being a wise king would not have sent every Noldor in Gondolin to war. There are women, children and warriors who were left to guard the city. i would assume he had about 30,000 elven warriors in totally. Altogether, about 90,000 in the city. about 70,000 of the being Noldoli. He led both Noldor and Sindar elves to the hidden kingdom. If he took 1/3 of Fingolfin's people, that would mean Fingolfin marched to ME with about 210,000 elves. Lets not forget that he suffered when some Noldor perished during the march. Feanor, came to ME with a smaller host which he arrived on ships. I guess around 100,000 elves actually landed on Beleriand. Considering he lost many elves during the 3 waves he pushed forward and was driven back from battle with Teleri. Fingon was at the front of Fingolfins host and he came to Feanors aid. Lets not forget that many ships were lost in the storms. Fingolfins host was 210,000 and Feanors host of 100,00 which gives me a total of 310,000 Noldor elves.

These numbers are not accurate or backed up by any proof except the 3 mentioned earlier. Please share your opinions, ideas, suggestions, proofs or anything related to this issue. I want to know what you guys and girls think!
[Edited on 5/11/2004 by kingofkingz]

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