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А вот и 13-й том! (Прочитано 1166 раз)
Ответ #15 - 09/14/21 :: 9:01pm

Loves A Dustbin   На Форуме
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Про медведиков:

« There were bears in considerable numbers, in the mountainous or rocky parts; both of a black and brown variety. The great black bears were found mostly in the Forostar. The relations of the bears and Men were strange. From the first the bears exhibited friendship and curiosity towards the newcomers; and these feelings were returned. At no time was there any hostility between Men and bears; though at mating times, and during the first youth of their cubs they could be angry and dangerous if disturbed. The Númenóreans did not disturb them except by mischance. Very few Númenóreans were ever killed by bears; and these mishaps were not regarded as reasons for war upon the whole race. Many of the bears were quite tame. They never dwelt in or near the homes of Men, but they would often visit them, in the casual manner of one householder calling upon another. At such times they were often offered honey, to their delight. Only an occasional “bad bear” ever raided the tame hives. Most strange of all were the bear-dances. The bears, the black bears especially, had curious dances of their own; but these seem to have become improved and elaborated by the instruction of Men. At times the bears would perform dances for the entertainment of their human friends. The most famous was the Great Bear-dance (ruxöalë) of Tompollë in the Forostar, to which every year in the autumn many would come from all parts of the island, since it occurred not long after the Eruhantalë, at which a great concourse was assembled. To those not accustomed to the bears the slow (but dignified) motions of the bears, sometimes as many as 50 or more together, appeared astonishing and comic. But it was understood by all admitted to the spectacle that there should be no open laughter. The laughter of Men was a sound that the bears could not understand: it alarmed and angered them.»

Медведи в природе всеядны и теоретически годятся на роль островных сверххищников. Но в тексте медвежьи «правонарушения» ограничиваются разорением ульев (и это редкое исключение) и уж в качестве совсем из ряда вон выпадающего несчастья - нападением на людей, когда мишки становились агрессивными в брачный период или видели в людях угрозу детенышам. Фиг знает, возможно, эти конкретные медведи вообще не были хищниками.

Ещё про отношения людей и дикой природы:

« It would appear that neither Elves nor Men had dwelt in this island before the coming of the Edain. Beasts and birds had no fear of Men; and the relations of Men and animals remained more friendly in Númenor than anywhere else in the world. It is said that even those that the Númenóreans classed as “predatory” (by which they meant those that would at need raid their crops and tame cattle) remained on “honourable terms” with the newcomers, seeking their food so far as they could in the wild, and showing no hostility to Men, save at times of declared war, when after due warning the husbandmen would, as a necessity, hunt the predatory birds and beasts to reduce their numbers within limits.
As has been said, it is not easy to discover what were the beasts and birds and fishes that already inhabited the island before the coming of the Edain, and what were brought in by them. The same is also true of the plants. Neither are the names which the Númenóreans gave to animals and plants always easy to equate with or relate to the names of those found in Middle-earth. Many, though given in apparently Quenya or Sindarin forms, are not found in the Elvish or Human tongues of Middle-earth. This is partly due, no doubt, to the fact that the animals and plants of Númenor, though similar and related to those of the mainlands, were different in variety and seemed to require new names.»

И здесь, кстати, тоже непонятки: кто из представителей нуменорской фауны мог таскать у людей tame cattle?
 
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Ответ #16 - 09/14/21 :: 9:29pm

Loves A Dustbin   На Форуме
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И вот ещё (текст, который открывает первую «нуменорскую» главу):

Цитата:
«Accurate charts of Númenor were made at various periods before its downfall; but none of these survived the disaster. They were deposited in the Guildhouse of the Venturers, and this was confiscated by the kings, and removed to the western haven of Andúnie; all its records perished. Maps of Númenor were long preserved in the archives of the Kings of Gondor, in Middle-earth; but these appear to have been derived in part from old drawings made from memory by early settlers; and (the better ones) from a single chart, with little detail beyond sea-soundings along the coast, and descriptions of the ports and their approaches, that was originally in the ship of Elendil, leader of those who escaped the downfall. Descriptions of the land, and of its flora and fauna, were also preserved in Gondor; but they were not accurate or detailed, nor did they distinguish clearly between the state of the land at different periods, being vague about its condition at the time of the first settlements. Since all such matters were the study of men of lore in Númenor, and many accurate natural histories and geographies must have been composed, it would appear that, like nearly all else of the arts and sciences of Númenor at its high tide, they disappeared in the downfall.»


Not accurate or detailed. То есть, сказочные отношения людей и островной живности могут - опять же теоретически - быть частью сохранившихся легенд, а в реальности все было несколько иначе.

Про местную промышленность:

Цитата:
«The Edain brought with them much lore, and the knowledge of many crafts, and numerous craftsmen who had learned from the Eldar, directly or through their fathers, besides preserving lore and traditions of their own.

As mentioned in chap. XII, “Lives of the Númenóreans”, above, the last paragraph at UT:169 was taken up from a long, digressive author’s note to that text; it is not present in the current text, which instead continues, with no significant variation, with that found at UT:170 (“But they could bring with them few materials …”), save for additional details regarding metals found in Númenor:

Lead they also had. Iron and steel they needed most for the tools of the craftsmen and for the axes of the woodsmen.

Also, regarding weapons in Númenor, this text has:

But no man wore a sword in Númenor, not even in the days of the wars in Middle-earth, unless he was actually armed for battle. Thus for long there were practically no weapons of warlike intent made in Númenor. Many things made could of course be so used: axes, and spears, and bows. The bowyers were a great craft. They made bows of many kinds: long bows, and smaller bows, especially those used for shooting from horse-back; and they also devised cross-bows, at first used mainly against predatory birds. Shooting with bows was one of the great sports and pastimes of men; and one in which young women also took part. The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration. In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared.

Finally, the long concluding paragraph of DN concerning the pursuits of men (UT:171), which Christopher Tolkien also took up from “Lives of the Númenóreans”, is absent here; instead, the text concludes with:

These things are said for the most part of the days of the bliss of Númenor, which lasted well nigh two thousand years; though the first hints of the later shadows appeared before that. Indeed it was their very arming to take part in the defence of the Eldar and Men of the West of Middle-earth against the wielder of the Shadow (at length revealed as Sauron the Great) that brought about the end of their peace and content. Victory was the herald of their Downfall.»
 
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Ответ #17 - 09/14/21 :: 10:04pm

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Прочла первый отрывок; сижу, нервно хихикаю. А так-то нуменорцы не охотились, угу...
Медведи не то чтобы совсем хищники. Так же, как свиньи и высшие приматы, они всеядны. С удовольствием жрут рыбу, да вот беда: в Нуменоре обозначено всего две реки. Если, конечно, нас не ждут радостные географические открытия класса "это на схематической карте не обозначено, но рек на самом деле до фига".
Ага, то есть, баланс хищников внезапно люди поддерживают, уже хорошо...

Upd.
Цитата:
Not accurate or detailed. То есть, сказочные отношения людей и островной живности могут - опять же теоретически - быть частью сохранившихся легенд, а в реальности все было несколько иначе.

Ага, пока я ходила дышать свежим воздухом, тоже до этого додумалась. Полагаю, всё именно так; то есть, воспоминания о Нуменоре для тех, кто жил в Гондоре и Арноре - это воспоминания о потерянном рае, где лев, ясно дело, может возлечь рядом с агнцем.

Upd-1.
Цитата:
These things are said for the most part of the days of the bliss of Númenor, which lasted well nigh two thousand years

Ну вот, я ж и говорю!
Осспадя, по хищным птицам из арбалетов... длинные луки ради развлечения... Не состязались на лошадях, но стреляли с седла...
Тут спазмалгон не поможет, тут коньяк нужен.
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #18 - 09/15/21 :: 1:04am

Loves A Dustbin   На Форуме
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Ещё немного про самих островитян:

Цитата:
« Númenórean mental development was also assimilated to some degree to the Eldarin mode. Their mental capacity was greater and developed quicker than that of ordinary Men; and it was dominant. After about seven years they grew up mentally with rapidity, and at 20 years knew and understood far more than a normal human of that age. A consequence of this, reinforced by their expectation of long-lasting vigour which left them with little sense of urgency in the first half of their lives, was that they very often became engrossed in lore, and crafts, and various intellectual or artistic pursuits, to a far greater degree than normal. This was particularly the case with men.»


Я вырезала часть текста про возраст вступления в брак и рождение детей, если надо, принесу.

Цитата:
« Númenóreans were strictly monogamous: by law, and by their “tradition”: that is by the tradition of the original Edain concerning conduct, afterwards re-inforced by Eldarin example and teaching. There were in the early centuries few cases of the breach of the law, or even of desire to break it. The Númenóreans, or Dúnedain, were still in our terms “fallen Men”;[7] but they were descendants of ancestors who were in general wholly repentant, detesting all the corruptions of the “Shadow”; and they were specially graced. In general they had little inclination to, and a conscious detestation of lust, greed, hate and cruelty, and tyranny. Not all of course were so noble. There were such things as wickedness among them, at first very rarely to be seen. For they were not selected by any test save that of belonging to the Three Houses of the Edain. Among them were no doubt a few of the wild men and renegades of old days, and possibly (though this cannot be asserted) actual conscious servants of the Enemy.»


Вот последнее предложение ну на оч-чень интересные мысли наводит.

Цитата:
« A second marriage was permitted, by traditional law, if one of the partners died young, leaving the other in vigour and still with a need or desire of children; but the cases were naturally very rare. Death untimely, whether by sickness or mischance, seldom occurred in the early centuries. This the Númenóreans recognized as due to the “grace of the Valar” (which might be withheld in general or in particular cases, if it ceased to be merited): the land was blessed, and all things, including the Sea, were friendly to them. In addition the people, tall and strong, were agile, and extremely “aware”: that is they were in control of their bodily actions, and of any tool or material they handled, and seldom made absent-minded or blundering movements; and they were very difficult to take “off their guard”. Accidents were thus unlikely to occur to them. If any did, they had a power of recovery and self-healing, which if inferior to that of the Eldar, was much greater than that of Men in Middle-earth.[fn5] Also among the matters of lore that they specially studied was hröangolmë or the lore of the body and the arts of healing.[8] Pride was no doubt their chief weakness, increased later by contact with Men of lesser kinds – though not at first: their first sentiments and motives were of pity and benevolence. They were also proud of their ancestry, in general and in particular, as a people and as individuals; and all men of all ranks kept scrolls of their descent. Descent “from Eärendil” or “from Beren and Lúthien” were their chief titles to nobility.
The later law, or rather custom, by which those of the royal house (especially the Heir) wedded only members of the Line of Elros, was not in the early generations possible. But in the days of Tar-Aldarion, or about the year 1000, there were numerous descendants of Elros sufficiently divergent in kinship. (Marriage with kin nearer than second cousin was at all times prohibited, until the latter days of the Shadow, even in the royal house.) This rule of royal marriage was never a matter of law, but it became a custom of pride: a symptom of the growth of the Shadow, since it only became rigid when in fact the distinction between the Line of Elros and other families, in life-span, vigour, or ability, had diminished or altogether disappeared.»


Про любимые занятия и культуру:

Цитата:
« Númenor was a land of peace; within it there was no war or strife, until the last years. But the people were descended from ancestors of a hardy and warlike kind. The energy of the men was chiefly transferred to the practice of crafts; but they were also much occupied in games and physical sports. Boys and young men loved especially to live, when they could, freely in the open and to journey on foot in the wilder parts of the land. Many exercised themselves in climbing. There were no great mountains in Númenor. The sacred Mountain of the Menel-tarma was near the centre of the land; but it was only about 3,000 feet high, and was climbed by a spiral road from its southern base (near where was the Valley of the Tombs, in which the kings were buried) up to its summit. But there were rocky and mountainous regions in the promontories of the North and North-west and South-west, in which some heights were about 2,000 feet. The cliffs, however, were the chief places of climbing for the daring. The cliffs of Númenor were in places of great height, especially along the west-facing coasts, the haunts of innumerable birds.
In the Sea the strong men took their greatest delight: in swimming or in diving; or in small craft for contests of speed in rowing and sailing. The hardiest of the people were engaged in fishing: fish were abundant, and at all times one of the chief sources of food for Númenor. The cities or towns where many people congregated were all by the coast. From the fisher-folk were mostly drawn the special class of mariners, who steadily increased in importance and esteem. At first the Númenórean craft, still largely dependent on Eldarin models, were engaged only in fishing, or in coastwise journeys from port to port. But it was not long before the Númenóreans by their own study and devices improved their art of ship-building, until they could venture far out into the Great Sea. It was in S.A. 600 that Vëantur, Captain of the King’s Ships under Tar-Elendil, first achieved a voyage to Middle-earth and back. He brought his ship Entulessë (‘Return’) to Mithlond on the Spring winds (which often blew strongly and steadily from the West) and returned in Autumn of the following year. After that sea-faring became the chief outlet for daring and hardihood among the men of Númenor. It was Aldarion son of Tar-Meneldur who formed the Guild of Venturers to which all the tried mariners belonged, and many young men even from the inland regions sought admission.
The women took little part in these things, though they were generally nearer to men than is the case with most races in stature and strength, and were agile and fleet of foot in youth. Their great delight was in dancing (in which many men also took part) at feasts or in leisure time. Many women achieved great fame as dancers, and people would go on long journeys to see displays of their art. They did not, however, greatly love the Sea. They would journey in need in the coastwise craft from port to port; but they did not like to be long aboard or to pass even one night in a ship. Even among the fisher-folk the women seldom took part in the sailings. But nearly all women could ride horses, treating them honourably, and housing them more nobly than any other of their domestic animals. The stables of a great man were often as large and as fair to look upon as his own house. Both men and women rode horses for pleasure. Riding was also the chief means of quick travel from place to place; and in ceremony of state both men and women of rank, even queens, would ride, on horseback amid their escorts or retinues.
The inland roads of Númenor were for the most part “horse-roads”, unpaved, and made and tended for the purpose of riding. Coaches and carriages for journeying were in the earlier centuries little used; for the heavier transport went largely by sea. The chief and most ancient road, suitable for wheels, ran from the greatest port, Rómenna, in the East, north-west to the royal city of Armenelos (about 40 miles), and thence to the Valley of Tombs and the Menel-tarma. But this road was early extended to Ondosto within the border of the Forostar (or Norlands), and thence straight west to Andúnië in the Andustar (or Westlands); it was however little used for wheeled vehicles of travel, being mainly made and used for the transport by wains of timber, in which the Westlands were rich, or of stone of the Norlands, which was most esteemed for building.
Though the Númenóreans used horses for journeys and for the delight of riding they had little interest in racing them as a test of speed. In country sports displays of agility, both of horse and rider, were to be seen; but more esteemed were exhibitions of understanding between master and beast. The Númenóreans trained their horses to hear and understand calls (by voice or whistling) from great distances; and also, where there was great love between men or women and their favorite steeds, they could (or so it is said in ancient tales) summon them at need by their thought alone.»
 
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Ответ #19 - 09/15/21 :: 2:11am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Ага, спасибо. Тут ничего сильно отличного от UT нет, за исключением, пожалуй, пассажа по поводу танцовщиц.
От Роменны до Арменелоса, значит, 64 километра, хм. Около 260 километров в поперечнике центральная часть. И каждый полуостров примерно такой же в длину. Интересно, а по численности населения там есть что-нибудь?

 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #20 - 09/15/21 :: 1:19pm

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Про численность вот:

Цитата:
” The legends make no guess at the numbers, and the histories say little. The fleet of Elros is said to have contained many ships (according to some 150 vessels, to others two or three hundred) and to have brought “thousands” of the men, women, and children of the Edain: probably between 5,000 or at the most 10,000. But the whole process of migration appears in fact to have occupied at least 50 years, possibly longer, and finally ended only when Círdan (no doubt instructed by the Valar) would provide no more ships or guides. In that time the number of the Edain that crossed the Sea must have been very great, though small in proportion to the extent of the island (probably some 180,000 square miles). Guesses vary between 200,000 and 350,000 people.[5] After a thousand years the population seems not to have much exceeded 2 million. This was greatly increased later; but outlet was found in the Númenórean settlements in Middle-earth. Before the Downfall the population of Númenor itself may have been as many as 15 million.”
 
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Ответ #21 - 09/16/21 :: 1:48am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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То есть, Остров почти вдвое больше всей Великобритании? И на площади, примерно равной территории Швеции, живёт раза в полтора больше народа, чем в современной Швеции же? В три с лишним раза больше народа, чем в Британии в начале XIV века? В полтора раза больше, чем в Испании или Франции того же периода? И это не считая колоний?
Эхм... ну, ОК. 350К человек первоначального населения, хм. И, типа, было бы ещё, но их через море возить перестали. Всё дивнее и дивнее.
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #22 - 09/16/21 :: 4:47pm

Luz-das-Estrelas   На Форуме
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Хм, а не может быть, что тексты о Нуменора - это позднейшие сказания, которые идеализировали Нуменор?
(В сторону - столь рафинированный Нуменор капельку напомнил мне... Швамбранию по изначальным замыслам).
 

Lutar e vencer!
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Ответ #23 - 09/17/21 :: 2:15am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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Да там это из всего следует, на самом деле. Но очень милая картинка.
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #24 - 09/17/21 :: 4:27pm

Эрин   Вне Форума
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/бурчит про себя/  Угу. Только вот, почти непристойный вопрос: "позднейшие" - это конец Третьей Эпохи, или... гм...  конец XX - начало XXI века, мда...?
 

"Мотор был очень похож на настоящий, но не работал."(с)
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Ответ #25 - 09/17/21 :: 11:22pm

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Не про нуменорцев, а вовсе даже про эльфов и их отношение к трофическим цепям:

Цитата:
« To speak of kelvar (that is, ‘animals’ or living things of all other kinds than the plants).[6] They do not grow in soil; but their bodies decay into slimes and loathsome forms before they are dispersed. Their end cannot therefore be likened to their beginning.
It would seem a wise conclusion that death, or the ending of living things of short duration, is now otherwise in Arda Marred than it might have been; and it has been marred in special by Melkor. For he desires ever new things and loves nothing that has been or already is; and at first he recked not how things were removed to make room for others, but came at last in his hatred and despite of all things (even those which he himself devised) to rejoice in their defilement.[7] On the other hand the Incarnate cannot rightly conceive of Arda Unmarred, in this matter of death, for they in their begetting by Eru belong to Arda Marred.[8] And this is most clearly seen herein: they are as it were the heirs and participators in death by violence. They cannot live without causing the death or ending untimely of living things that have corporeal life. Some of the Eldar (and some Men) eschew the slaying of kelvar to use their bodies as meat, feeling that these bodies, resembling in different degrees their own, are in some way too near akin. (Yet none of the Eldar hold that the eating of flesh, not being the flesh of the Incarnate and hallowed by the indwelling of the fëa, is sinful or against the will of Eru.) But even so they must kill and eat olvar or die; for it is their nature to be fed, as to their hröar, by living things corporeal, and things have a right to live according to their nature. Yet violence is done to the olvar (which have a kinship with the bodies of the Incarnate, be it remote), and these are denied the fulfilment of their own lives and final shapes. Therefore we must hold that the Incarnate belong by nature to Arda Marred and to a world in which death, and death by the violence of others, is accepted.[9] Neither Elves nor Men eat willingly things that have not died by violence.»


И немножко крипоты на ночь глядя:

Цитата:
« Incarnate bodies die also, when their corporeal coherence is destroyed. But not, by necessity, when or because the fëa departs. Usually the fëa departs only because the body is injured beyond recovery, so that its coherence is already broken. But what if the fëa deserts a body which is not greatly injured, or which is whole? It then, it might be thought, remains a living corporeal body, but without mind or reason; it becomes an animal (or kelva), seeking nothing more than food by which its corporeal life may be continued, and seeking it only after the manner of beasts, as it may find it by limbs and senses. This is a horrible thought. Maybe such things have indeed come to pass in Arda, where it seems that no evil or perversion of things and their nature is impossible. But it can have happened only seldom.
For the function of the body of one of the Incarnate is to house a fëa, the absence of which is unnatural to it; so that such a body is not ever in precisely the like case with a body that has never possessed a fëa: it has suffered loss. Moreover while the fëa was with it, the fëa inhabited it in every part or portion, less or greater, higher or lower.[10] The departure of the fëa is therefore a shock to the body; and except maybe in rare cases this shock will be sufficient to unloose its coherence, so that it will fall into decay. Nor in any case would the deserted body easily turn to feeding itself after the manner of beasts; for the matter of food (as all matters of governance) had long been directed by the fëa, and carried on by means beyond the reach of the body in itself; so that the mere beast senses were dulled, and the body undirected would be less skilful than an ordinary beast. Unless by chance much food of the kind required by it were ready to hand, it would therefore most likely soon perish by starvation, even if it survived the shock of the sunderance.
(The rare cases are those where sunderance has happened in Aman where there is no decay. Also others more horrible. For it is recorded in the histories that Morgoth, and Sauron after him, would drive out the fëa by terror, and then feed the body and make it a beast. Or worse: he would daunt the fëa within the body and reduce it to impotence;[11] and then nourish the body foully, so that it became bestial, to the horror and torment of the fëa.)
To speak of elf-bodies. An elf-body is by nature and function made to be the house of a permanent inhabitant, a fëa that cannot leave Time, nor go whence its return to the body is impossible. Such a body, therefore, will wait much longer, maintaining coherence and resisting decay, but then it will usually seem to sleep, lying passive and essaying nothing, not even the search for food, without the command of its master. (It cannot be fed without waking it, and thus killing it with shock, or rendering it beastlike.) But man-bodies deserted by the fëa perish swiftly. They are made to be the houses of fëar that, once they are severed from the body, never return. The body then has no function (and the shock of the separation is greater); and for the most part it soon decays and passes away into Arda.[fn1] [12] It is known to the Eldar that the fëar of Men (many or all, they do not know) go also to Halls of Waiting in the keeping of Námo Mandos; but what is there their fate, and whither they go when Námo releases them, the Eldar have no sure knowledge, and Men knowing little say many different things, some of which are fantasies of their own devising and are darkened by the Shadow. The wisest of Men, and those least under the Shadow, believe that they are surrendered to Eru and pass out of Eä. For which reason many of the Elves in later days under the burden of their years envied the Death of Men, and called it the Gift of Ilúvatar.»


Вот тут я даже не знаю, как это воспринимать…
 
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Ответ #26 - 09/18/21 :: 1:29am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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(прочла первый отрывок; зависла) То есть, воплощённые, имеющие физическую оболочку и нуждающиеся в её поддержании, суть продукт Арды Искажённой. А, э, задумывалось-то что? Материальный мир для нематериальных существ? То есть, простите, я наивно думала, что у нас исключительно люди — вражьи дети, но, оказывается, эльфы в некотором роде тоже? И каким образом ещё можно очистить пространство для нового, будучи ограниченными пределами мира? Я чего-то определённо не догоняю тут.
Пойду читать дальше.

Upd.
Цитата:
The rare cases are those where sunderance has happened in Aman where there is no decay

Это как же, вашу мать, извиняюсь, понимать?..

Upd-1.
Цитата:
An elf-body is by nature and function made to be the house of a permanent inhabitant, a fëa that cannot leave Time, nor go whence its return to the body is impossible. Such a body, therefore, will wait much longer, maintaining coherence and resisting decay, but then it will usually seem to sleep, lying passive and essaying nothing, not even the search for food, without the command of its master

Ага, вот и ответ на вопрос, что сталось с Лютиэнь, когда её душа покинула тело. Правда, ситуации с Береном это не объясняет, тем паче, что он-то умер от ран, а не по собственной воле.

Upd-2. А, о...
Цитата:
The rare cases are those where sunderance has happened in Aman where there is no decay

(поперхнувшись) Мы, вообще-то, знаем только один такой rare case, это Мириэль. Ну, то есть, по Профессору знаем один. И что должен подумать канонист в таком вот аксепте?
 

My armor is contempt.
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Ответ #27 - 09/18/21 :: 3:08am

Loves A Dustbin   На Форуме
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Цитата:
То есть, воплощённые, имеющие физическую оболочку и нуждающиеся в её поддержании, суть продукт Арды Искажённой.


В MR вроде уже было, что искажением затронуто буквально все, что имеет материальную оболочку.

А в новых текстах (разделы Death и The Knowledge of the Valar соответственно) есть следующее:

Цитата:
« Animal bodies “die” when their coherence is destroyed. Their material then becomes unloosed and dispersed. This is painful to behold (especially for any who loved some such creature living, vegetable or beastlike), and is more so as the remains still retain any likeness to their living shape. It is held by the Eldar that in Arda Unmarred things would have died that were limited to a period of time (that is, those whose total shape was small); and that many things were by nature of this shorter duration. But the end would not have been abhorrent to look on.[1] (It would no doubt to the Incarnate have still held the pain of loss and farewell. But that is in part due to the mystery of love within Time;[2] and in part due to the fact that the Incarnate only entered in to the design of Eä after the rebellion of Melcor; so that their whole being is bound up with the Marring. This, some hold, it is the will of Eru that they should redress or atone, by the suffering of love.)»

(курсив мой)

и

Цитата:
« There was, however, one element in the Design of Eru that remained a mystery: the Children of Eru, Elves and Men, the Incarnate. These were said to have been an addition made by Eru Himself after the Revelation to the primal spirits of the Great Design. They were not subject to the subcreative activities of the Valar, and one of the purposes of this addition was to provide the Valar with objects of love, as being in no way their own subject, but having a direct relationship to Eru Himself, like their own but different from it. They were, or were to be, thus “other” than the Valar, independent creations of His love, and so objects for their reverence and true (entirely unselfregarding) love. Another purpose they had, which remained a mystery to the Valar, was to complete the Design by “healing” the hurts which it suffered, and so ultimately not to recover “Arda Unmarred” (that is the world as it would have been if Evil had never appeared), but the far greater thing “Arda Healed”.[fn2]»

(курсив был в тексте изначально)
 
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Ответ #28 - 09/18/21 :: 3:24am

Элхэ Ниэннах   Вне Форума
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(нервно хихикает) Ой, ну, надо же!.. All of a sudden, то есть, люди — любимые дети Эру. "Так; что-то ещё?" (с)

Нет, тут фишка не в том, что вся материя затронута Искажением, а в том, что сама по себе необходимость питаться, кормить физическую оболочку, есть Искажение. Причём на кэлвар и олвар этот принцип, похоже, не распространяется: только на Воплощённых. Вот меня и интересует, зачем их тогда вообще воплощать, если в этом случае они будут жить по законам материального мира и кушать, как все прочие твари земные?
Что смерть — это фуй, некрасиво, потому что разложение и всё такое прочее, я поняла. Каким образом планировалось "красиво", правда, я понимаю не очень. Ну, были бы все как Айнур, вопросов бы не было. А если заведомо создаются плотские существа, которым нужно кормиться...
Какого года вообще эти тексты?
 

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Ответ #29 - 09/18/21 :: 4:19am

Loves A Dustbin   На Форуме
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Текст Death  это вроде 1957-58, второй - где-то 1967.

Цитата:
Вот меня и интересует, зачем их тогда вообще воплощать, если в этом случае они будут жить по законам материального мира и кушать, как все прочие твари земные?


Насколько я поняла, чтобы redress и atone. и чтобы валар чем-то занять
Кстати вот, вспомнила, что там ещё есть: таблица с ключевыми датами, текст датируется 1959 годом:
Цитата:
“VY 858. 1152. Shadows of fear begin to dim the natural happiness of the Quendi. They hold debate, and it appears that already some hearts are overshadowed. Younger elves (who never personally heard the Voice of Eru) doubt the existence of the Valar (of whom they heard from Melian?). The do not waver in allegiance, but in pride believe that their mission is to fight the Dark, and ultimately to possess the world of Arda. This “heresy”, though driven under at the Finding, is the seed of the later Fëanorian trouble.”

Если они должны redress и atone, то почему fight the Dark и possess the world of Arda, которая для них и создавалась, внезапно «ересь»…
 
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