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Восточные земли (Прочитано 6391 раз)
07/17/05 :: 5:25pm

Phoenix   Вне Форума
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На различных кратах Арды Предначальных Эпох присутствуют земли восточнее Средиземья. Единственный геогрфический объект, расположенный там и известный мне - это гора Halorme. За ними находятся Врата Утра.
Есть ли у кого-нибудь информация про восточные земли?
 

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Ответ #1 - 08/28/05 :: 12:28pm

sniper   Вне Форума
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Воды нет, растительности нет, населены роботами...
Если честно, можем сказать определенно - фиг его знает...Рунное море какое-то и рунийские земли, корень -рун-,кажется, обозначает "восток", нет?Где-то сказано, что новые властители Гондора и Рохана продолжали войну за Рунным морем. Ну, прикиньте, кого Вам больше всего вастаки по описаниям напоминают...соотнесите с местностью где-нибудь в нашем мире...
 
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Ответ #2 - 08/28/05 :: 12:41pm

Phoenix   Вне Форума
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Нет-нет, я не Восточную часть Средиземья имел в виду. Я имел в виду большой континент, симметричный Валинору. Он расположен на Востоке Арды.
 

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Ответ #3 - 08/28/05 :: 6:38pm

R2R   Вне Форума
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Phoenix, а не подскажете, откуда гора Halorme взялась? Что-то я её в текстах найти не могу. А так бы, может, что-нибудь рядом нашлось.
 
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Ответ #4 - 08/28/05 :: 8:41pm

Phoenix   Вне Форума
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Это из одной карты Арды, которую я в свое время нашел в Сети. Сейчас я ее поместил в свой ЖЖ, вот она:http://www.ljplus.ru/img2/e/l/elmor/Arda.gif
 

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Ответ #5 - 08/28/05 :: 11:56pm

R2R   Вне Форума
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Сенькс.
Ага. Она не Halorne, а вовсе даже Kalorne. И кое-что действительно нашлось. Правда, надёжность этих текстов весьма условная.

(перевести то, что относится к делу, постараюсь позже)

HoME 4-5, "Амбарканта"

In the East of  the world are the Walls of the Sun, which is a great mountain range symmetrically answering the  Mountains of Valinor in the West, as shown on map IV.   Of this range there is no mention in the Lost Tales,  where almost all that is said of the East is contained in  Orome's words to the
{неразборчиво}
In the East beyond the tumbled lands there is a silent beach and a dark and empty sea' (I. 214); in the East  also was the great mountain Kalorme (I. 212), and there  Aule and Ulmo 'builded great havens [of the Sun and  Moon] beside the soundless sea' (I. 215). In the  Ambarkanta the Gates of Morn, through which the Sun  returns from the Outer Dark in  the Lost Tales, have disappeared.
      The  extremely close symmetry of the Eastern and  Western lands as displayed on map IV is striking; the  chief departure from symmetry being  the difference  in  shape of the great Seas, and this was  due  to  the  eastward thrusting or  'crowding' of  Middle-earth - 'so that  it was  bended' -  at the  time of  the making of Valinor and the raising of its protective mountain-chain.
  This more than Titanic crushing of the new-made world was  the origin of the great mountain ranges of Middle-earth, the Blue, the Red, the Yellow, and the Grey. Cf. The Silmarillion  p. 37:

      And  the  shape  of  Arda  and  the  symmetry  of  its  waters  and its lands was marred in  that time,  so that  the first  designs of  the Valar were never after restored.

The  text  of  the  Ambarkanta  does  not  mention the  Great Gulf or the Bay of Balar, but speaks  rather of  the vast  extension of the  sea  of Ringil  and its  joining to  the Eastern  and Western Seas (it is not clear why it is said that the  sea of  Helkar 'be came an inland sea or great lake', since it  was so  already).

The  sea  marked  'East  Sea'  on  map  V  is  the  former  sea of Ringil,-  cf.  the  Ambarkanta:  the  sea of  Ringil ...  became a great sea flowing northeastward  and joining  by straits  both the Western and Eastern Seas.'


HoME 1-9, The hiding of Valinor

Then calling loudly that Manwe and Varda and all their
folk come forth he held before their eyes his thong of gold, and they knew not his purpose; but Orome bid them cast their eyes on that Hill that is called Kalorme standing hugely in the lands most distant from Valinor, and is held most lofty save Taniquetil, yet seemeth therefrom a dim thing fading afar off. Even as they watched Orome stepped back, and putting all his cunning and his strength thereto he made a mighty cast, and that golden cord sped in a curve through the sky until its noose caught Kalorme's topmost pinnacle.
Then by the magic of its making and the cunning of Orome's hand it stayed a bright golden curve and neither drooped nor sagged; but Qrome fastened its hither end to a pillar in Manwe's courts, and turning to those who gazed upon him said: "Who then listeth to wander in the Great Lands, let him follow me," and thereat he set foot upon the thong and sped like the wind out over the gulf even to Kalorme, while all upon Taniquetil were silent in amaze. Now did Orome loosen the thong from Kalorme's peak and run as swiftly back, ravelling it as he came, until once more he stood before Manwe.

In the account of Orome's making of the Rainbow-bridge,
the noose that he cast caught on the summit of the great
mountain Kalorme ('Sun-rising-hill') in the remotest East.
This mountain is seen on the 'World-Ship' drawing, p. 87.
The story that Vaire named 'The Haven of the Sun' (pp.
240 ff.) provides the fullest picture of the structure of the
world that is to be found in the earliest phase of the mythology. The Valar, to be sure, seem strangely ignorant on this subject -- the nature of the world that came into being so largely from their own devising, if they needed Ulmo to acquaint them with such fundamental truths.


HoME 1 - Appendix,
Names in the Lost Tales

Kalorme This appears in QL among the derivatives of root  KALA(see Galmir), with the meaning 'hill-crest over
which the Sun rises'. orme='summit, crest', from a
root ORO with apparently a base sense of 'rise'. or 'on',
oro 'hill', oro- 'rise', orto- 'raise', oronta 'steep', orosta
'ascension', etc.; Gnomish or 'on, onto, on top', orod,
ort 'mountain', orm 'hill-top', oros, orost- 'rising'. Cf.
Orome, Orossi, Tavrobel.


Orome In QL Orome'son of Aule' is placed under a root
ORO that is distinct (apparently because of the nature of
the consonant) from ORO (with meaning of 'steepness,
rising') given under Kalorme; but these roots are said to
be 'much confused'. This second root yields ore 'the
dawn, Sunrise, East', orea 'of the dawn, Eastern',
oronte, oronto 'Sunrise', osto 'the gates of the Sun',
and Ostor 'the East, the Sun when she issues from her
white gates'. It is noted that Orome should perhaps be
placed under the other root, but there is no indication
of the connections of the name. In The Hiding of Valinor
(p. 241) Orome has a particular knowledge of the East
of the world. His name in Gnomish is Orma; and in the
Valar name-list he is also called Raustar, for which see
Measse.
 
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Ответ #6 - 08/29/05 :: 12:09am

Phoenix   Вне Форума
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Огромное спасибо!! Улыбка
 

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Ответ #7 - 09/02/05 :: 8:40pm

Айкъет Илто   Вне Форума
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На нек-рых картах около моря Рун есть надпись "Дорвинион".Что это значит?и что вообще про неё есть?
 

Настоящий маленький желтый (и толстый) крокодильчик. Здесь. (с)&&" Never forget that this is war!" (c) Monkey D. Dragon, the revolutionary.  &&&&&&
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Ответ #8 - 10/03/05 :: 1:41am

Azzagil   Вне Форума
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Вы имеете в виду часом не Земли Солнца?
Про них есть инфа в энциклопедии по миру Толкиена.
 

Если хочешь спокойно спать,то возьми с собой в постель чистую совесть...
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Ответ #9 - 10/03/05 :: 7:49pm

Phoenix   Вне Форума
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Azzagil писал(а) 10/03/05 :: 1:41am:
Вы имеете в виду часом не Земли Солнца?
Про них есть инфа в энциклопедии по миру Толкиена.

Я - именно их. Айкъет Илто, очевидно, нет.
 

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Ответ #10 - 10/06/05 :: 8:59pm

R2R   Вне Форума
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Hobbit:
-----------------------------------------
It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy; but this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion, not meant for his soldiers or his servants, but for the king's feasts only, and for smaller bowls, not for the butler's great flagons.
-----------------------------------------
The wine of Dorwinion brings deep and pleasant dreams.
-----------------------------------------


HoME 3-1:
-----------------------------------------
The potent wine that Beleg carried and gave to the travellers from his
flask (223 ff.) is notable -- brought from the burning South and by long
mays carried to the lands of the North -- as is the name of the land from
which it came: Dor-Winion (230, 425). The only other places in my
father's writings where this name occurs (so far as I know) are in The
Hobbit, Chapter IX Barrels out of Bond: 'the heady vintage of the
great gardens of Dorwinion', and 'the wine of Dorwinion brings deep and
pleasant dreams'.* See further p. 127.
-----------------------------------------
220
Then he bade them drink, and drew from his belt
a flask of leather full filled with wine
that is bruised from the berries of the burning South--  225
and the Gnome-folk know it, and the nation of the Elves,
and by long ways lead it to the lands of the North.
There baked flesh and bread from his wallet
they had to their hearts' joy; but their heads were mazed
by the wine of Dor-Winion that went in their veins,     230
and they soundly slept on the soft needles
of the tall pine-trees that towered above.

-----------------------------------------
On a time was Turin at the table of Thingol --
there was laughter long and the loud clamour
of a countless company that quaffed the mead,
amid the wine of Dor-Winion that went ungrudged
in their golden goblets; and goodly meats
there burdened the boards, neath the blazing torches
set high in.those halls that were hewn of stone.
-----------------------------------------
Then he bade them drink from his belt drawing
a flask of leather full-filled with wine
that is bruised from the berries of the burning South --
the Gnome-folk know it, from Nogrod the Dwarves
by long ways lead it to the lands of the North
: for the Elves in exile who by evil fate
the vine-clad valleys now view no more
in the land of Gods. There was lit gladly
a fire, with flames that flared and spluttered,
of wind-fallen wood that his wizard's cunning
rotten, rain-sodden, to roaring life
530
535
540
545
there coaxed and kindled by craft or magic;
there baked they flesh in the brands' embers;
white wheaten bread to hearts' delight
he haled from his wallet till hunger waned
and hope mounted, but their heads were mazed
by that wine of Dor-Winion that went in their veins,
and they soundly slept on the soft needles
of the tall pinetrees that towered above.
-----------------------------------------
On a time was Turin at his table seated,
and Thingol thanked him for his thriving deeds;
there was laughter long and the loud clamour
of a countless company that quaffed the mead                         805
and the wine of Dor-Winion that went ungrudged
in their golden goblets; and goodly meats
there burdened the boards neath blazing torches
in those high halls set that were hewn of stone.
-----------------------------------------
We  learn  now  that  the  strong  wine  of  Dor-Winion  that  Beleg  gave to the  travellers  and  which was  drunk at  the fateful  feast in  the Thousand Caves   was   brought   to  the   Northern  lands   from  Nogrod   by  Dwarves (540 - 1);
-----------------------------------------


HoME 5-2:
-----------------------------------------
$33. Here   endeth  The   Silmarillion:  which   is  drawn   out  in brief from those songs and histories which  are yet  sung and  told by the  fading  Elves,  and  (more  clearly  and  fully) by  the vanished Elves  that  dwell  now  upon  the Lonely  Isle, Tol  Eressea, whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age  when  some  man of  Earendel's race  hath passed  beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps  upon the quays of Avallon, and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of  whom was  Eriol one,  that men  named AElfwine, and he alone  returned and  brought tidings  of Cortirion  to the Hither Lands.
-----------------------------------------
И примечание:
$33. The quays of Avallon. At this time Avallon was a name of Tol Eressea: 'the Lonely Island, which was renamed Avallon', FN II $1.
The meads of Dorwinion must be in Tol Eressea. The name has previously occurred as a land of vines in 'the burning South' in the Lay of the Children of  Hurin, in  the wine  of Dorwinion  in The  Hobbit, and as marked on the map made  by  Pauline  Baynes;  see  III. 26, which needs to be corrected by addition of a reference to this passage.
-----------------------------------------

Таким образом, мы видим, что Дорвинион располагался на "жарком Юге", виноград там рос в "великих садах"; к Тинголу вино доставляли гномы из Ногрода; также в какой-то момент Профессор считал, что Дорвинион расположен на Тол Эрессэа.
Написание в различных версиях "Лэ о детях Турина" меняется с Dor-Winion на Dorwinion.

Вроде бы на этом от текстолога всё. Улыбка Ну, то есть, всё, что мне удалось накопать.
 
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Ответ #11 - 10/12/05 :: 10:34pm

R2R   Вне Форума
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Обсуждение, не вписавшееся в "13-й том", перенесено сюда:
http://www.elhe.ru/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1129145698
« Последняя редакция: 10/16/05 :: 6:47am от R2R »  
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