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Middle-Earth >> 13-й том >> Восточные земли http://www.elhe.ru/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1121606706 Сообщение написано Phoenix в 07/17/05 :: 5:25pm |
Заголовок: Восточные земли Создано Phoenix в 07/17/05 :: 5:25pm
На различных кратах Арды Предначальных Эпох присутствуют земли восточнее Средиземья. Единственный геогрфический объект, расположенный там и известный мне - это гора Halorme. За ними находятся Врата Утра.
Есть ли у кого-нибудь информация про восточные земли? |
Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано sniper в 08/28/05 :: 12:28pm
Воды нет, растительности нет, населены роботами...
Если честно, можем сказать определенно - фиг его знает...Рунное море какое-то и рунийские земли, корень -рун-,кажется, обозначает "восток", нет?Где-то сказано, что новые властители Гондора и Рохана продолжали войну за Рунным морем. Ну, прикиньте, кого Вам больше всего вастаки по описаниям напоминают...соотнесите с местностью где-нибудь в нашем мире... |
Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано Phoenix в 08/28/05 :: 12:41pm
Нет-нет, я не Восточную часть Средиземья имел в виду. Я имел в виду большой континент, симметричный Валинору. Он расположен на Востоке Арды.
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Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано R2R в 08/28/05 :: 6:38pm
Phoenix, а не подскажете, откуда гора Halorme взялась? Что-то я её в текстах найти не могу. А так бы, может, что-нибудь рядом нашлось.
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Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано Phoenix в 08/28/05 :: 8:41pm
Это из одной карты Арды, которую я в свое время нашел в Сети. Сейчас я ее поместил в свой ЖЖ, вот она:http://www.ljplus.ru/img2/e/l/elmor/Arda.gif
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Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано R2R в 08/28/05 :: 11:56pm
Сенькс.
Ага. Она не Halorne, а вовсе даже Kalorne. И кое-что действительно нашлось. Правда, надёжность этих текстов весьма условная. (перевести то, что относится к делу, постараюсь позже) HoME 4-5, "Амбарканта" In the East of the world are the Walls of the Sun, which is a great mountain range symmetrically answering the Mountains of Valinor in the West, as shown on map IV. Of this range there is no mention in the Lost Tales, where almost all that is said of the East is contained in Orome's words to the {неразборчиво} In the East beyond the tumbled lands there is a silent beach and a dark and empty sea' (I. 214); in the East also was the great mountain Kalorme (I. 212), and there Aule and Ulmo 'builded great havens [of the Sun and Moon] beside the soundless sea' (I. 215). In the Ambarkanta the Gates of Morn, through which the Sun returns from the Outer Dark in the Lost Tales, have disappeared. The extremely close symmetry of the Eastern and Western lands as displayed on map IV is striking; the chief departure from symmetry being the difference in shape of the great Seas, and this was due to the eastward thrusting or 'crowding' of Middle-earth - 'so that it was bended' - at the time of the making of Valinor and the raising of its protective mountain-chain. This more than Titanic crushing of the new-made world was the origin of the great mountain ranges of Middle-earth, the Blue, the Red, the Yellow, and the Grey. Cf. The Silmarillion p. 37: And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored. The text of the Ambarkanta does not mention the Great Gulf or the Bay of Balar, but speaks rather of the vast extension of the sea of Ringil and its joining to the Eastern and Western Seas (it is not clear why it is said that the sea of Helkar 'be came an inland sea or great lake', since it was so already). The sea marked 'East Sea' on map V is the former sea of Ringil,- cf. the Ambarkanta: the sea of Ringil ... became a great sea flowing northeastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas.' HoME 1-9, The hiding of Valinor Then calling loudly that Manwe and Varda and all their folk come forth he held before their eyes his thong of gold, and they knew not his purpose; but Orome bid them cast their eyes on that Hill that is called Kalorme standing hugely in the lands most distant from Valinor, and is held most lofty save Taniquetil, yet seemeth therefrom a dim thing fading afar off. Even as they watched Orome stepped back, and putting all his cunning and his strength thereto he made a mighty cast, and that golden cord sped in a curve through the sky until its noose caught Kalorme's topmost pinnacle. Then by the magic of its making and the cunning of Orome's hand it stayed a bright golden curve and neither drooped nor sagged; but Qrome fastened its hither end to a pillar in Manwe's courts, and turning to those who gazed upon him said: "Who then listeth to wander in the Great Lands, let him follow me," and thereat he set foot upon the thong and sped like the wind out over the gulf even to Kalorme, while all upon Taniquetil were silent in amaze. Now did Orome loosen the thong from Kalorme's peak and run as swiftly back, ravelling it as he came, until once more he stood before Manwe. In the account of Orome's making of the Rainbow-bridge, the noose that he cast caught on the summit of the great mountain Kalorme ('Sun-rising-hill') in the remotest East. This mountain is seen on the 'World-Ship' drawing, p. 87. The story that Vaire named 'The Haven of the Sun' (pp. 240 ff.) provides the fullest picture of the structure of the world that is to be found in the earliest phase of the mythology. The Valar, to be sure, seem strangely ignorant on this subject -- the nature of the world that came into being so largely from their own devising, if they needed Ulmo to acquaint them with such fundamental truths. HoME 1 - Appendix, Names in the Lost Tales Kalorme This appears in QL among the derivatives of root KALA(see Galmir), with the meaning 'hill-crest over which the Sun rises'. orme='summit, crest', from a root ORO with apparently a base sense of 'rise'. or 'on', oro 'hill', oro- 'rise', orto- 'raise', oronta 'steep', orosta 'ascension', etc.; Gnomish or 'on, onto, on top', orod, ort 'mountain', orm 'hill-top', oros, orost- 'rising'. Cf. Orome, Orossi, Tavrobel. Orome In QL Orome'son of Aule' is placed under a root ORO that is distinct (apparently because of the nature of the consonant) from ORO (with meaning of 'steepness, rising') given under Kalorme; but these roots are said to be 'much confused'. This second root yields ore 'the dawn, Sunrise, East', orea 'of the dawn, Eastern', oronte, oronto 'Sunrise', osto 'the gates of the Sun', and Ostor 'the East, the Sun when she issues from her white gates'. It is noted that Orome should perhaps be placed under the other root, but there is no indication of the connections of the name. In The Hiding of Valinor (p. 241) Orome has a particular knowledge of the East of the world. His name in Gnomish is Orma; and in the Valar name-list he is also called Raustar, for which see Measse. |
Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано Phoenix в 08/29/05 :: 12:09am
Огромное спасибо!! :)
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Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано Айкъет Илтэ в 09/02/05 :: 8:40pm
На нек-рых картах около моря Рун есть надпись "Дорвинион".Что это значит?и что вообще про неё есть?
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Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано Azzagil в 10/03/05 :: 1:41am
Вы имеете в виду часом не Земли Солнца?
Про них есть инфа в энциклопедии по миру Толкиена. |
Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано Phoenix в 10/03/05 :: 7:49pm Azzagil записан в 10/03/05 :: 1:41am:
Я - именно их. Айкъет Илто, очевидно, нет. |
Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано R2R в 10/06/05 :: 8:59pm
Hobbit:
----------------------------------------- It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy; but this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion, not meant for his soldiers or his servants, but for the king's feasts only, and for smaller bowls, not for the butler's great flagons. ----------------------------------------- The wine of Dorwinion brings deep and pleasant dreams. ----------------------------------------- HoME 3-1: ----------------------------------------- The potent wine that Beleg carried and gave to the travellers from his flask (223 ff.) is notable -- brought from the burning South and by long mays carried to the lands of the North -- as is the name of the land from which it came: Dor-Winion (230, 425). The only other places in my father's writings where this name occurs (so far as I know) are in The Hobbit, Chapter IX Barrels out of Bond: 'the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion', and 'the wine of Dorwinion brings deep and pleasant dreams'.* See further p. 127. ----------------------------------------- 220 Then he bade them drink, and drew from his belt a flask of leather full filled with wine that is bruised from the berries of the burning South-- 225 and the Gnome-folk know it, and the nation of the Elves, and by long ways lead it to the lands of the North. There baked flesh and bread from his wallet they had to their hearts' joy; but their heads were mazed by the wine of Dor-Winion that went in their veins, 230 and they soundly slept on the soft needles of the tall pine-trees that towered above. ----------------------------------------- On a time was Turin at the table of Thingol -- there was laughter long and the loud clamour of a countless company that quaffed the mead, amid the wine of Dor-Winion that went ungrudged in their golden goblets; and goodly meats there burdened the boards, neath the blazing torches set high in.those halls that were hewn of stone. ----------------------------------------- Then he bade them drink from his belt drawing a flask of leather full-filled with wine that is bruised from the berries of the burning South -- the Gnome-folk know it, from Nogrod the Dwarves by long ways lead it to the lands of the North : for the Elves in exile who by evil fate the vine-clad valleys now view no more in the land of Gods. There was lit gladly a fire, with flames that flared and spluttered, of wind-fallen wood that his wizard's cunning rotten, rain-sodden, to roaring life 530 535 540 545 there coaxed and kindled by craft or magic; there baked they flesh in the brands' embers; white wheaten bread to hearts' delight he haled from his wallet till hunger waned and hope mounted, but their heads were mazed by that wine of Dor-Winion that went in their veins, and they soundly slept on the soft needles of the tall pinetrees that towered above. ----------------------------------------- On a time was Turin at his table seated, and Thingol thanked him for his thriving deeds; there was laughter long and the loud clamour of a countless company that quaffed the mead 805 and the wine of Dor-Winion that went ungrudged in their golden goblets; and goodly meats there burdened the boards neath blazing torches in those high halls set that were hewn of stone. ----------------------------------------- We learn now that the strong wine of Dor-Winion that Beleg gave to the travellers and which was drunk at the fateful feast in the Thousand Caves was brought to the Northern lands from Nogrod by Dwarves (540 - 1); ----------------------------------------- HoME 5-2: ----------------------------------------- $33. Here endeth The Silmarillion: which is drawn out in brief from those songs and histories which are yet sung and told by the fading Elves, and (more clearly and fully) by the vanished Elves that dwell now upon the Lonely Isle, Tol Eressea, whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age when some man of Earendel's race hath passed beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps upon the quays of Avallon, and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of whom was Eriol one, that men named AElfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands. ----------------------------------------- И примечание: $33. The quays of Avallon. At this time Avallon was a name of Tol Eressea: 'the Lonely Island, which was renamed Avallon', FN II $1. The meads of Dorwinion must be in Tol Eressea. The name has previously occurred as a land of vines in 'the burning South' in the Lay of the Children of Hurin, in the wine of Dorwinion in The Hobbit, and as marked on the map made by Pauline Baynes; see III. 26, which needs to be corrected by addition of a reference to this passage. ----------------------------------------- Таким образом, мы видим, что Дорвинион располагался на "жарком Юге", виноград там рос в "великих садах"; к Тинголу вино доставляли гномы из Ногрода; также в какой-то момент Профессор считал, что Дорвинион расположен на Тол Эрессэа. Написание в различных версиях "Лэ о детях Турина" меняется с Dor-Winion на Dorwinion. Вроде бы на этом от текстолога всё. :) Ну, то есть, всё, что мне удалось накопать. |
Заголовок: Re: Восточные земли Создано R2R в 10/12/05 :: 10:34pm
Обсуждение, не вписавшееся в "13-й том", перенесено сюда:
http://www.elhe.ru/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1129145698 |
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